Lets convene the first installment of the alpha cell roundtable. A thread designed for the members to bounce ideas and concepts from their own training and personal experiences off of one another, bring out subtle tricks that you have learned, exercises you love, and anything else that you'd like to throw out there about the topic.

This month, lets turn things on its head and visit a bodypart thats completely irrelevant to the chest and bis friday evening pump crowd, and also a calling card for only the truly serious, big, stong mf'ers...the back.

I'll admit, when I was 16 years old and just starting out, I didn't even know I HAD a back. Pulldowns were about the extent of it. As I gained knowledge and understood that my body did in fact have a posterior, I devoted quite a bit of time bringing it back in line with the rest of everything else. Now I enjoy back training probably more than anything else, oddly enough.


At least in my training, heavy rows have always been the money exercise. Hammer strength iso rows were GREAT when I had access, and moreso now than ever before HEAVY DB rows. For some reason, the DB row is far superior for me to the bb row. I just never got much out of them, even though I did them for YEARS. Another thing I've never felt has actually given me any GROWTH...pulldowns of any variety. Sure, I do them/did them with every variation and loaded every different way, but they just never seemed to put any beef on me. Pullups are a little better, but in all honesty my width and thickness on the back have come from rows. Neutral pullups are effective as well, but I have to load them pretty heavy to feel anything. Chins? Nah...I just can't feel them in my lats too much no matter how I try them.

Deadlifts. I know a whole lot of folks do these on back day, but I've always done them with legs as a hamstring exercise. That said, they blast the shit out of my back, and not just the erectors...the lats too. I'm more and more seeing them as just an isometric row with heavy ass weight. In my opinion, you've got to have some sort of deadlift in there if you want your back to be as thick as possible.

So who's next? Lets hear some experiences, experiments, etc. and talk a little training.

I'm not advanced or anything, but in my own experience and in my limited experience helping others, I firmly believe the biggest factor in getting your back to grow is to create a strong mind-muscle connection. Without it, you may get to the point where you're rowing some heavy weight, or doing pulldowns with the stack, but if you aren't really using your back, you're really short-changing your results, IMHO.

That said, I'm with you on exercise selection. Barbell rows are easily my favorite back exercise. I take as narrow of a grip as I comfortably can, and really squeeze the shit out of my scapulae and all that mid-back, trap, lat musculature mumbo-jumbo. I try and get a good stretch, and on heavy sets, I see nothing wrong with some body english to help get that weight movin.

Dumbell rows are also definitely awesome. Done for higher reps in the Matt Kroc style seems to be very popular too.

I don't deadlift from the floor, but I am sure to plenty of deads off the rack for hopefully the same effect without fatiguing the hamstrings. Doing the movement with a shrug-like movement at the end couldn't hurt the traps either.

Pullups I think are good too, but like I said earlier, the key is learning how to actually USE your back. I did pullups for months before I really started lifting and I think that's the reason why my back is arguably my best bodypart.

I do pulldowns and stuff too, but like MODOK, I dunno how much I've really gotten out of them. This summer, I spent some time trying out the HS machines while I had access to them and loved them as well (High Row was nice for width, and the Iso Low Row felt great for like a DB row substitute).

An experiment that was introduced to me by a training partner this summer was doing standing lat pulldowns. I dunno if this is a novel idea or not, but basically, we'd just wedge our knees or feet against the seat (depends on the machine) and do pulldowns that way, really focusing on a strong contraction. Done as a dropset finisher-type movement, these were great. First time we did these, I'd never experienced such soreness in my back.

I have to say I agree on the heavy DB rows working much better than BB rows.

That being said, I'll talk a little about calves. After my leg training, calves were usually an afterthought and I had trouble forcing myself to train them. Lately (since around April) I've started training them first on leg day. This may not seem groundbreaking because I know a lot of DC guys do this, but for whatever reason, if I've trained them first on leg day, I have a strong desire to train them AGAIN after my other leg exercises. So for awhile now I've been training calves first and last and for the first time I'm actually seeing some improvement.

My favorite upper back exercise:
The Plate Stack Row
MOVEMENT TYPE: Pull
PHILIPPI'S TAKE: "Learning to get position on a stone is one of those things that takes practice, and there's no substitute for a perfectly spherical object that wants to roll out of your arms. This modified version is a full-body movement and is designed to help with the pulling portion of the lift."

EXECUTION: Start with a stack of 45-pound plates (you determine the weight you want to lift, but at least three plates are required for this exercise to mimic the real thing). Place the stack of 45s on a 10-pound plate so your fingers can get underneath. Straddle the stack with your feet just outside the plates and your toes in line with the plate holes. With your knees slightly bent, grasp the stack with your fingers underneath and your palms against the sides. Pull the plates to your chest as if you were doing a bent-over row.


I've found that my back does great with a really high frequency approach. I'll do one upper body pull exercise every workout.

FTR, I tried to edit my post when I realized this thread was all about the back, although I think the original title was edited. ;)

I honestly don't think almost 2 years of pulldowns yielded any results. For anyone out there who claims they are the same as pull ups or rack chins, you're crazy.

Rack pulls
Heavy DB Rows
Rack chins

Not much to add other than - Pendlay Rows. If you've never done em, you're missing out.

These kill my entire back like nothing else... They literally cover EVERTHING. Your lower back gets a good workout stabilising the weight and your lats and upper back get hammered too. They're one of those exercises that once it goes up, everything follows - deadlift, bench etc...

They're especially useful for shirted benching because they allow you to build really good bench stability in my experience.

High frequency pull ups (3-4x per week) have done a lot for my back width too.

Another new favourite is hypers with the emphasis on arching from the middle back. Even with no weight and high reps it pumps me up like a motherfucker!!

Rep ranges for optimal growth- discuss.

Rep range- as with most other lifts 6-10 95% of the time, depending on the program.

I'm looking forward to giving Rack Chins a fair shake next time I'm bulking, which may be a while.

I generally stick to lat pulldowns (v-grip), chin-ups, DB Row (always has been a favorite) and HS Hi-Row

T-Bar row (chest supported) makes its way in from time to time as well.

100 Pullups.

I read that in a Dan John article and thought "pfft... I've done 33 before this should be cake". Wrong.

I didn't change my routine after consistently (and still) getting comments about my back width from everyone.

Heavy deads, pull-ups, heavy Pulldowns, and heavy DB Rows did it.

Simple.

Also, deads I never go over 4.

Pull-ups I stick with 12.

DB Rows I stick with 8-10.

Pulldowns, 6-8.

It seems a lot of you guys prefer DB rows over BB rows. I'm the opposite. Nothing gives a pump like hi rep BB rows. And I can feel my lats in BB rows more than any other movement.

Since everybody seems to prefer DB's, maybe I'm doing something wrong. I'd like to hear about how some of you set up and do the movement. Are you putting one knee and one hand on a bench? Or just a supporting hand? Are you using a lot of body english? Where are you pulling to?

Very interesting seeing many of you guys saying that you get more out of pulldowns than you do out of pull ups. For many years on this site nearly all of the forum posters and authors have been poo-poo'ing the pull down and WAY overselling the pullup... In my opinion at least.

I never really got too much out of pull ups in terms of solid back work myself. I kept them in my routine for a while because of all the advice I got for them, dropping them after a while because I was able to "feel" the work of other exercises much better. I generally consider them a descent "upper body strength" exercise, but I dont consider them a superior back exercise.

Top three would probably be:

- Rack Chins : 15-25 reps
- Rack Pulls : Done for both heavy and moderate weight
- Heavy Row : Again, Heavy and moderate

Wide-grip flat bar pulldowns

Wide-grip Rack Chins

Heavy DB Rows - done Kroc style (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7jAIdoORxI), I've done 200x10 per side

Oldschool T-bar Rows (done Ronnie style, a bit more upright)

V-grip Cable row

Those have always been my staple exercises for back, and I'd say its definitely been working for me.

Rep range wise I do almost everything around 6-10, sometimes pushing upward of 15 max. I pretty much hate ever going above 15.

I would like to add I fully agree with BugeishaAD about the mind-muscle connection with back. I do not even feel my biceps during back work at all 99% of the time.

Who here does legit "kroc rows" in their routine? By legit I mean heavy as possible for > 25 reps set. There is something about them. When you go that heavy and that high of a rep range, you have a very long time under tension. I can feel shit remodeling in my back while I'm doing the set.Connective tissue stretches, the back remodels, and my back is starting to look TOTALLY different structurally than it did before I started them.