I had talked to a photographer about the race subject in bodybuilding, which provoked me look into it a little... I've read/heard that the commercial side of Bodybuilding is aimed at young, caucaisians, given that is the "majority" of the the large-magazine subscribers (Flex, MD etc.) and we have also heard some Pros say it before.. This is not an issue to me, given I'm white, and a DIEHARD fan of Coleman all day! I was just wondering what everybody else thought about this in terms of it being true or not?


ALSO, not relating to the first question; at their best: Ronnie or Jay? This has nothing to do w. race, I am just curious to see who you all like better as a bodybuilder.

N.

Ronnie.

I like Ronnie's training intensity better.

As a whole I just see many more black guys who appear to have bodybuilding genetics, at least aesthetics wise. The round muscle bellies, natural leanness, small waist and wide clavicles. Seems like whites have more potential to be mass monsters. Basically in the gym I see mostly pudgy white guys, and the black guys I see are pretty "ripped" if not necessarily big.

That being said, I'm a Ronnie fan all day.

You can even apply that to this website. Seems like every black guy who posts here has a good physique, the same cannot be said for everyone else. There is also 1 or 2 black guys who are monstrous who lurk over in the steroid forum. Maybe I'm just seeing what I want to see, but that's what I've observed.

Most consumer items are aimed at a young white male population when it comes to clothing and pop culture influence. They make up the majority. Hip Hop recording sales are highest among white males.

Before Lee Haney won (and even afterwards as he has stated himself) there seemed to be a visible effort to limit the exposure of blacks in magazines related to bodybuilding. They might have exposure INSIDE the magazines, but were rarely seen on the cover. I remember not seeing Shawn Ray on a cover until nearly the 1990's and he was one of the most stand out competitors at that time.

Things have clearly changed, but you still see evidence of this mindset if you look at how they seem to still be looking for their "blond bomber" in the mags. Wolf comes to mind as someone who received MUCH hype but didn't pan out as some apparently hoped.

As far as genetics, yeah, we've had that discussion before. I agree with waylander, if you look at the serious regular posters on this site, there does seem to be quite a difference in how certain people are developed and even the extremes they can reach.

At the same time though... Despite the initial question, doesn't it also seem like it's now heading the OTHER way around? You see more Dexter, Phil, victor etc. all over the covers more and more.. The Fitness Atlantic flyers, Looking at the Nationals line-up for the 2009 year as well... Again I view nothing wrong with any race in this sport, just pointing it out for the point of discussion, but I have actually herd 2 of my friends (one non-bodybuilding) ask me if Bodyubuilding was becoming like basketball, after reading a Flex. (Apollogies if any of this sounds racist.. it's not). At the same time, Professor X has a point w. the "All American Guy" blond bomber look....

I don't believe Jay did or ever could beat Ronnie on the stage. I think Bob Paris, in his book "Gorilla Suit" talks about the preference for bodybuilders who attract the target market (Whites) of the publishers (Weider really). I also think this is changing because society is changing. We're becoming ever more diverse and will continue to do so. I think there is a huge market out there for the publisher willing to become the go-to bodybuilding magazine for young black guys interested in the sport. Right now, there is a market, and it is under/un-served.

I think it's fair to say there's a genetic element.

Bringing up the question of whether people in the ordinary percentiles have higher obesity rates or not is completely irrelevant.

The only people that are relevant for discussion of who makes it as competitive bodybuilders are those in the top 1% of genetics, or really perhaps in the 1/10th or 1/100th of one percent.

The frequency of finding given qualities at the extremes is NOT predicted simply by frequency among the ordinary. Thus you could have, for example, a higher percentage of obese blacks than whites (though this may not be genetic) while finding among those who are more gifted for bodybuilding better genetics among blacks for being lean than with whites, in terms of frequency.

On the social element, I think that's a good point. For example, I have a friend who is Puerto Rican and a doctor and has certainly better than average genetics, and used to be fairly serious about training (never really dedicated though.) These days he stays reasonably trim but the muscle is gone. He doesn't care. At all.

While it wouldn't always be the case of course, I do tend to agree that on average a black guy in the exact same situation would quite likely have stuck with the training and accomplished and maintained more with his physique, even with the same genetics other than those controlling racial appearance.

And as mentioned, you have a lot of white guys who think of some fairly small Hollywood actor as having their ideal physique, while that would be less common among black men I think. Not too many black men would pick as a physical role model say the black equivalent of Toby McGuire, whoever that might be.

This factor if correct is not important as to whether a given top bodybuilder of one race will do more with himself than another of another race, but certainly could have to do with how many in fact choose to dedicate themselves that much.

Lastly, as to the magazines now giving a great deal of coverage to great current black bodybuilders: How could they not. It would be simply ridiculous if they didn't.

To answer the shorter question: Ronnie. By a mile. Best bodybuilder of all time, in my opinion

As personal opinion, the one true screw-job was Sergio Oliva but I am not convinced that this was really from race, or even principally from commercial effect of race (in other words, difference in money-producing potential if everything somehow were the same but race.)

First, no one seems ever to have picked up a trace of racial prejudice, personally, in Joe Weider. That just seems to be a problem he didn't have.

And second, Oliva did have two other strikes against him.

Norman Mailer wrote regarding Frazier and Ali, "There can never be two truly great heavyweights at the same time: One must always eclipse the other."

The same I think was true for Arnold and Oliva. Only one of them was going to have the ascendancy in their day. Bad luck for Oliva that Arnold combined being a good enough bodybuilder to be competitive with him with his other traits such as charisma which made him much more of a money-producer, even aside from any racial factor.

And second, Oliva's physique was decades ahead of his time. He was the ONLY X-frame physique of his day. As personal opinion, if the great classical artists could have used Arnold as their model, they'd have thought him ideal for a statue of a god, or as a vision of the ideal man. Oliva? No, he was from another planet.

I do think Oliva got nothing like the success and acclamation he really deserved. But I don't think racial prejudice, even of magazine and supplement buyers as opposed to Weider himself, really was the main strike against him.

But was there some racial commercial factor? I agree there probably was -- Robbie Robinson didn't have the above strikes, and while he DID get a pretty good amount of coverage I think it's fair to say it wasn't as much as his physique warranted.

One of my favorites

Yada yada yada.

Everyone, every human on this planet appreciates the visible hard work and determination of another human being. We all can aspire to their level. But the fact remains that everyone will be the most inspired by the person they relate to the most.

So black dudes will prefer to see black freaks, White dudes prefer white freaks, Spanish Dudes prefer Spanish Freaks and Asians would prefer an Asian to show them that they can too be freaks.

I feel like race relations are the stress we have not yet learned to handle. It's a tense topic for no reason. Yes there are genetic racial differences, with some offering advantages in certain areas. They can be celebrated and enjoyed due to the diversity and differing levels of effort and myriad of approaches required to make bodybuilding happen, regardless of race.

Each race has their genetic weakness to overcome. It should also be pointed out that the individuals like Arnold, Haney and Olivia are the genetic cream of the crop and far from being representative of ANY race or population. lol. They are in their own leagues.


And as far as Sergio. He was a huge Freak for his day. But honestly alot of his muscles are not aesthetic. They are bulky and crude looking. Very little artistic Finesse to him. Paul Dillet Had the same Problem. Loved the Dude for the Freak he was. Like a Demigod. Still miss him competing, but unfortunately he was also built with a less then aesthetic figure. Nothing racial there. Just facts.


I also think it sucks that Shawn Ray could not get a cover till later. It's not the public's fault. Someone in the boardroom somewhere makes those decisions. If there was true racism noon would buy the magazines with a black dude on the cover. They White people that buy this stuff don't care. They like any human being, like to see the effects of hard work and determination on a person of any color. Magazine sales took off and never looked back. So much for the supposed "secret" racism. lol.

I've always liked Dillet's build quite a bit... just thought his posing was a tad awkward.