Let's talk about 'em.

Assuming your goal is to gain the most muscle possible, they definitely exist and almost always need to be pushed through in order to see even more progress. Very few skinny guys on the planet are going to reach "fucking huge" without ever bulking up to some degree. They have to force their bodies to accept a higher body weight as "normal" so that it will even accept more muscle mass considering muscle is highly "expensive" for the body to maintain. Your body won't gain muscle unless the other needs have been met...which is why "gaining slowly" will doubtfully work for many people with that goal. Your body isn't going to reach its optimal potential for mass gain if you are being overly restrictive with food intake.

I usually hit a higher weight quite a few times before I finally reach it much leaner.

If my end goal is a certain body weight, I should expect to gain more than that in order to diet back down to the goal weight.

I agree with the idea of forcing your body into accepting a new size. And that holds true for either being bigger or smaller. I have been at both ends, and it took severe pushing to reach both of those. I also think that there is more to breaking plateaus than just the physical aspect. What I mean is, the mental game. Picturing yourself at a new size, seeing yourself in that manner.

I think people have a sense of fear of the unknown or unfamiliar. What would it be like to actually reach the physique or strength goals that you want? In my experience and observation, people don't fear failure but success instead. People need to see that the sky wont fall on them once they reach their goals.

Define for me 'set point' real quick.

Otep wrote:
Define for me 'set point' real quick.

That was going to be my post, lol.

BBB

I think they mean this:
http://www.mirror-mirror.org/s...

Otep wrote:
Define for me 'set point' real quick.

If I weigh 180lbs and bulk up to 200lbs and find it hard to gain more initially or even to maintain that weight, that is my body's "weight set point". It will take greater effort and food intake to break 200lbs and it will take holding that weight for a long period of time for my body to accept it as "normal" so that I don't drop weight the moment I miss a meal. In effect, my body sees "200lbs" as uncomfortable and will drop weight the moment I don't give it enough food for even a couple of days.

After I hold that weight for a while and bulk up past it, that 200lbs is now easily reachable and my body accepts it as normal. That becomes my new baseline as I gain even more body weight. The next stop may be at 215lbs. If that becomes the new weight that my body has trouble maintaining, it will take a similar approach to make that the new baseline.

Most newbies today seem to believe that the moment they run into a decrease in gains that this means they have to change their entire program. This is often NOT the case. Their body needs more food and it may take holding more body fat for a while just so the body recognized that weight as its homeostatic weight setpoint.

This obviously does not apply to the weekend warrior who thinks "tone" is what they are after.

This topic makes a lot of sense. You eat X calories and reach a given weight. To gain more weight you need to eat more calories. Did I miss a thread somewhere or oversimplify the concept?

TheDudeAbides wrote:
This topic makes a lot of sense. You eat X calories and reach a given weight. To gain more weight you need to eat more calories. Did I miss a thread somewhere or oversimplify the concept?

It isn't as simple as just eating more calories. It often takes MUCH more calories and passing up that weight in order for your body to accept it as normal. You may have been able to get away with 3,000cals a day to hit 190lbs. It may take 4,000 or more to break 200lbs so that the body sees that as normal. Once passed, it may not take that much food to maintain that 200lbs.

This is about breaking barriers that your body sets up because it is more interested in your survival than whether your arms are stretching the sleeves of your shirt.

They are definitely the weights that your body finds it easy to maintain. Looking back I can remember what a lot of mine have been because I sometimes spent years at them.

131 - late teens, early 20s
144 - mid 20s
157 - late 20s
168 - early 30s
174 - 32 - 36
186 - 36 (used a GVT routine for the 1st time)
195 - 41 (started powerlifting)
207 - 42
214 - 43
222 - 44
227 - 45

Planning to drop back down some just because I'm feeling fat and I think I'm at the point of diminishing returns with my leverages (esp. versus the increased risks of carrying more weight as I get older). Obviously weight has been easier to gain as my metabolism has slowed down but I've also added more muscle in the past 9 years than at any other point in my life. It will be interesting to see if the set points will be the same on the way down or different.

Professor X wrote:
It isn't as simple as just eating more calories. It often takes MUCH more calories and passing up that weight in order for your body to accept it as normal.

This is what I'm learning now. I've gotten up to 235, but I couldn't stay there. I haven't given it a true push lately, but I just couldn't stay above 230. It didn't matter if I was trying to stay relatively lean and gain, or if I said "fuck it" and tried the fat route. I guess that makes my current set point around 220.

When I'm ready to try to gain again, I guess I need to consciously go beyond my goal weight to create a new set point. Is that the idea here?

malonetd wrote:
Professor X wrote:
It isn't as simple as just eating more calories. It often takes MUCH more calories and passing up that weight in order for your body to accept it as normal.

This is what I'm learning now. I've gotten up to 235, but I couldn't stay there. I haven't given it a true push lately, but I just couldn't stay above 230.

It didn't matter if I was trying to stay relatively lean and gain, or if I said "fuck it" and tried the fat route. I guess that makes my current set point around 220.

When I'm ready to try to gain again, I guess I need to consciously go beyond my goal weight to create a new set point. Is that the idea here?

My situation too. I hit 218 - 221 a couple of months ago as part of a concerted effort. No matter how much I ate or how little cardio I did, I could NOT go beyond that point.

I have reached several set points in the past couple of years:
190
205
221

Each time I hit one, I knew it. I would reach the point of being somewhat miserable and sluggish. It was useless to press on until my body had adjusted to the new weight as X mentioned.

I'm now at 210 - 212 and feel pretty good. Even went out and ran two miles of HIIT a couple of times in the last week. A year ago at my 205 set point, I felt like a lumbering, lazy ox.

A couple of years ago I was set around the 235 mark. Wouldn't drop, wouldn't gain. I have no idea why, but right now my set point is around 247 give or take a few pounds up or down.

My diet hasn't been drastically different, my training has been harder than normal though. I don't know.

JimMcD wrote:
Obviously weight has been easier to gain as my metabolism has slowed down but I've also added more muscle in the past 9 years than at any other point in my life. It will be interesting to see if the set points will be the same on the way down or different.

As a young PLer i saw an article about Larry Pacifico which said he was 5'7" and lifted at 242. i was 5'7" and 165. Realized i had to move up. it wasn't easy, but age helped, and so did a couple forced eating periods at around 205 and 225. Like Jim said, easier to gain muslce now than ever.

Also looks easy to hold mluscle going down.

pushharder wrote:
My situation too. I hit 218 - 221 a couple of months ago as part of a concerted effort. No matter how much I ate or how little cardio I did, I could NOT go beyond that point.

I have reached several set points in the past couple of years:
190
205
221

Each time I hit one, I knew it. I would reach the point of being somewhat miserable and sluggish. It was useless to press on until my body had adjusted to the new weight as X mentioned.

I'm now at 210 - 212 and feel pretty good. Even went out and ran two miles of HIIT a couple of times in the last week. A year ago at my 205 set point, I felt like a lumbering, lazy ox.

This is what I am finding to be my current situation as I push myself forward into (what is for me) uncharted weight territory. I am currently at about 203, up from a recent 192, and I can tell you that playing soccer or even just doing some cardio on an elliptical is not nearly as easy as it once was.

I think once I push past this point and get more comfortable with the weight, things will settle in a bit better.

In the end, I do plan on getting leaned out again in the future and maybe being around high 190's, but hopefully a much denser and better developed high 190's than I've been at before.

What is interesting to me about this latest "experiment" is for the first time almost ever, I am finding it trickier than I ever would have expected to eat enough. Don't get me wrong -

I absolutely know I can and WILL get past this, but it's just funny to even see this come up at all. It's never been a problem before.

Via PM:

boyscout wrote:
Pushharder,

I saw your thread in the Cell, but can't post there (obviously).

You mentioned you felt like a lumbering ox at 205 last year or so. Do you think this is common? Did it happen at other set points?

I experienced something like that this past weekend. I've gain about 20lbs. in the past 4 or 5 months up to 215 from 195ish. Tried to throw the frisbee around this weekend and felt like a big, slow bastard.

Did the feeling of being a lumbering ox go away? Did you have to work to improve on it? Or did it go away when you pushed through the set point?

Feel free to post my questions in the cell if you think it's relevant to the discussion. You're the only one who mentioned this so far, and it really struck me.

Thanks!
-CD

Yes, that feeling goes away with me. It just takes some time.

I just settle down and don't try to keep up the heavy eating for awhile. My weight falls off 5 - 10 lbs. and after a few months I go at it again.

dre wrote:
A couple of years ago I was set around the 235 mark. Wouldn't drop, wouldn't gain. I have no idea why, but right now my set point is around 247 give or take a few pounds up or down.

My diet hasn't been drastically different, my training has been harder than normal though. I don't know.

I'm glad I'm not the only one. I hover consistently between 240-45.

I don't know if this has any affect, but I used to be the husky kid growing up. Putting on weight has never been a struggle.

Professor X wrote:

I usually hit a higher weight quite a few times before I finally reach it much leaner.



Maybe it's just me, but I find this a somewhat eye-opening, intriguing statement.

So you are essentially arguing for a few "fat" gains before ultimately settling at the new weight in a leaner condition?

Chushin wrote:
Professor X wrote:

I usually hit a higher weight quite a few times before I finally reach it much leaner.



Maybe it's just me, but I find this a somewhat eye-opening, intriguing statement.

So you are essentially arguing for a few "fat" gains before ultimately settling at the new weight in a leaner condition?


Everyone isn't exactly the same so some people may find their body adapts differently. Those who can make truly huge leaps in bodyweight without gaining excess body fat are no doubt out there even if they are few in number.

For myself, I know that I started this very skinny. It took FORCING my body to accept a great weight in order to be the size I am now. It is doubtful that I could have "slow gained" 100+lbs. Very few people on the planet have genetics like that.

This is not some blanket recommendation to gain excess body fat for no damn reason. The person not in tuned with their own body and who is uneducated as far as how their body works could very well just get fat as hell without gaining the muscle to justify it.

This is not for everyone. Very few people seem to have the drive to push hard enough in the gym to make the most of what I am talking about.

So let's here a few tips people have for pushing past set points. Without a doubt it is eating big (and clearly much bigger than you are used to), but something more specific can be illuminating to people reading these kinds of threads. I've read a few people basically eating natural peanut butter with basically every meal.

In a completely different kind of set point, I recall a story about Stallone as he was preparing for his role in "Copland" to be an overweight guy. He said that he reached a point where he simply could not put on any more weight until he found his magic bullet - pancakes. With that secret weapon in his arsenal, the weight piled on.

pushharder wrote:

I just settle down and don't try to keep up the heavy eating for awhile. My weight falls off 5 - 10 lbs. and after a few months I go at it again.

IMO, that is not changing your set point. Once changed, it should take a concerted effort (Read as: diet, increased cardio) to get below your new set point. Weight should not effortlessly "vanish," resulting in having to make another run at getting back to the previously higher set point. From what I can tell, you're just recycling the same 10 pounds over and over. Your set point is where your body fights to stay, so if you don't tweak anything and your weight automatically drops, then your actual set point is lower, not the weight you were at the end of your gaining cycle.

I increased my set point several years back. I did this only as a personal experiment to see what effect an additional 10-12 pounds would have on my PRs. When I first started gaining weight I had a hard time keeping it on; my body just naturally fought to dial back down to my former set point. I'd gain 3-4 pounds, then without trying, lose 2. This went on for weeks, but as I continued to push lifting hard, the weight started to stick. It wasn't easy, but eventually I started holding the ground I gained.

After about 8 months of holding myself at the higher weight I noticed it was much more difficult to drop and STAY (and that's the telling sign) more than 1-2 pounds below my new set point. Today I'm always within 4-5 pounds of that gain and I seriously doubt I could "casually" drop back to my former set point without making some big sacrifices that I'm not willing to make. This IS my weight now ... I own it.

So that said, here is what I consider a signpost of success: Given you don't over-manipulate cardio and/or food intake, your weight should "naturally" hover (give or take) within a pound or two of your new set point. You haven't "reset" your set point if your weight starts to retreat back to your former set point the minute you ease up on the food intake and/or dial back on the weights.

FWIW, an observation/opinion: Folks who have maintained a very lean physique for many years or are naturally lean tend to have the hardest time resetting and keeping their set point higher. Those who are more middle of the road don't seem to struggle as much to reset higher, but tend to gain more fat and have a harder time if they want to revert back to the old set point. I tend to suggest the latter up their set point by smaller increments while leaner folks can make a harder run at it.

Of course, all bets are off for older lifters and peri and post-menopausal women. Their metabolism and hormone profile is such that it's almost impossible to predict results with any accuracy. As a side note, our set point seems to rise with age unless we do something to prevent it, so older lifters who want to try to reset to a higher point ... beware!

Cappy

Capacity wrote:
pushharder wrote:

I just settle down and don't try to keep up the heavy eating for awhile. My weight falls off 5 - 10 lbs. and after a few months I go at it again.

IMO, that is not changing your set point. Once changed, it should take a concerted effort (Read as: diet, increased cardio) to get below your new set point. Weight should not effortlessly "vanish," resulting in having to make another run at getting back to the previously higher set point. From what I can tell, you're just recycling the same 10 pounds over and over. Your set point is where your body fights to stay, so if you don't tweak anything and your weight automatically drops, then your actual set point is lower, not the weight you were at the end of your gaining cycle.

I increased my set point several years back. I did this only as a personal experiment to see what effect an additional 10-12 pounds would have on my PRs. When I first started gaining weight I had a hard time keeping it on; my body just naturally fought to dial back down to my former set point. I'd gain 3-4 pounds, then without trying, lose 2. This went on for weeks, but as I continued to push lifting hard, the weight started to stick. It wasn't easy, but eventually I started holding the ground I gained.

After about 8 months of holding myself at the higher weight I noticed it was much more difficult to drop and STAY (and that's the telling sign) more than 1-2 pounds below my new set point. Today I'm always within 4-5 pounds of that gain and I seriously doubt I could "casually" drop back to my former set point without making some big sacrifices that I'm not willing to make. This IS my weight now ... I own it.

So that said, here is what I consider a signpost of success: Given you don't over-manipulate cardio and/or food intake, your weight should "naturally" hover (give or take) within a pound or two of your new set point. You haven't "reset" your set point if your weight starts to retreat back to your former set point the minute you ease up on the food intake and/or dial back on the weights.

FWIW, an observation/opinion: Folks who have maintained a very lean physique for many years or are naturally lean tend to have the hardest time resetting and keeping their set point higher. Those who are more middle of the road don't seem to struggle as much to reset higher, but tend to gain more fat and have a harder time if they want to revert back to the old set point. I tend to suggest the latter up their set point by smaller increments while leaner folks can make a harder run at it.

Of course, all bets are off for older lifters and peri and post-menopausal women. Their metabolism and hormone profile is such that it's almost impossible to predict results with any accuracy. As a side note, our set point seems to rise with age unless we do something to prevent it, so older lifters who want to try to reset to a higher point ... beware!

Cappy

I agree with what you're saying. My mistake was to say my set points were my high points; they weren't. As you said they were the points at which my weight settled.

But for me that "settled weight" has increased steadily and as I said, I am now comfortable at 210 - 212 whereas a year ago I felt like a fat miserable ox at 205.

There is something physiologically and metabolically happening that is somewhat inexplicable to me thus the discussion.

pushharder wrote:

But for me that "settled weight" has increased steadily and as I said, I am now comfortable at 210 - 212 whereas a year ago I felt like a fat miserable ox at 205.

There is something physiologically and metabolically happening that is somewhat inexplicable to me thus the discussion.


I'm not sure I understand ... do you mean you don't get why 210-212 feels "normal" when a year ago 205 didn't?

I think you'll find most people will report similar feelings. Even people who have become obese will have a tendency to get comfortable with where they're at ... so to speak. I've often talked to my sister about this. Morbidly obese, there are many things she physically doesn't feel comfortable doing anymore. Walking is a chore. Riding a bike, impossible. Even climbing the stairs is work. That said, she has a certain amount of what I'd call "comfort" with her obesity. The danger with this complacency is that she's so far past her ideal weight that another ten pounds will easily go unnoticed. Often you'll hear people say they had "no idea" how far gone they were, when you know one look in the mirror would make that statement totally absurd. Come on! Of course they "knew," they just "got comfortable" with where they're at!

I do think we mentally adjust to our size and we usually don't notice that it's a hindrance unless we do something or have a change in our life that brings this to our attention.

In my case my clothes fit different. Yes, it irked me and there were times when I had to remind myself it was for a good cause, but it took some time to adjust to the change. I was used to being a slightly leaner person, but I got over it ... mostly by telling myself it was temporary. ("Just stay here a little longer .... you can always go back ...")

HA!

Cappy

Capacity wrote:
pushharder wrote:

But for me that "settled weight" has increased steadily and as I said, I am now comfortable at 210 - 212 whereas a year ago I felt like a fat miserable ox at 205.

There is something physiologically and metabolically happening that is somewhat inexplicable to me thus the discussion.


I'm not sure I understand ... do you mean you don't get why 210-212 feels "normal" when a year ago 205 didn't?

Yes. To a degree.

I think you'll find most people will report similar feelings. Even people who have become obese will have a tendency to get comfortable with where they're at ... so to speak. I've often talked to my sister about this. Morbidly obese, there are many things she physically doesn't feel comfortable doing anymore. Walking is a chore. Riding a bike, impossible. Even climbing the stairs is work. That said, she has a certain amount of what I'd call "comfort" with her obesity. The danger with this complacency is that she's so far past her ideal weight that another ten pounds will easily go unnoticed. Often you'll hear people say they had "no idea" how far gone they were, when you know one look in the mirror would make that statement totally absurd. Come on! Of course they "knew," they just "got comfortable" with where they're at!

I do think we mentally adjust to our size and we usually don't notice that it's a hindrance unless we do something or have a change in our life that brings this to our attention.

In my case my clothes fit different. Yes, it irked me and there were times when I had to remind myself it was for a good cause, but it took some time to adjust to the change. I was used to being a slightly leaner person, but I got over it ... mostly by telling myself it was temporary. ("Just stay here a little longer .... you can always go back ...")

HA!

Cappy


However, the rest of your post, although I understand what you're saying is somewhat irrelevant because obesity is not part of my situation. I am at the same or even less bodyfat at 212 than I was at 205.

My point is I don't think one typically puts on mass, and for the sake of discussion let's limit this to lean mass, steadily. I think it comes in spurts. I think PX wrote about this sometime ago.

In my case, it seems to work if I drive it up til it plateaus and then relax for a bit (in the sense of the forced eating), let the body adjust and hit its set point and then start over again.

I do admit that body type and metabolism are unique to the individual and that probably changes the dynamics of the discussion. Although I do not have an ectomorphic body type now, that is my background. Even at my current age of 48 I have to force myself to gain weight and always have. If I stop thinking about gaining weight for even a few days, in other words if I don't go out of my way to 'overeat', I cannot gain.

I realize the typical Velocity Diet candidate probably envies the hell out of me and his/her whole outlook on set points is most likely different.

Push,

Do you think you started to feel less sluggish b/c your body comp improved? The first time I hit my current weight, I felt pretty sluggish also, but then I hit it again leaner (after dieting) and felt better.