I'll open this topic up for discussion for a few days.

I've seen this and never thought it as an issue. However, the way you presented this has gotten me to think. When I have seen this type of stuff, it has been from controlling men. Rather than the guy saying he would support his S.O. in her choice, they just gave the statements you mentioned.

Thanks for the article. i just sent it off to a couple of women I know that could probably use this advice.

I'd just like to point out that this "smallness" isn't exclusive to men... I've known quite a few women who use the exact same tactics.

Just wanted you to know that this is a great article. I have known these little men and the women who love them. It doesn't take much to totally shred the self-confidence these women might gain from losing a couple of pounds. These men are little indeed and I am as pissed off as you are after reading this article. It is truly the man's insecurity that is causing him to undermind the woman's efforts. Why would she want to stay with such an S.O.B. if she were to lose some weight and gain some confidence and self-respect along the way?

nephorm wrote:
I'd just like to point out that this "smallness" isn't exclusive to men... I've known quite a few women who use the exact same tactics.

Glad you mentioned that. Very true.

So why don't these poor women haul ass or tell these dudes to go fuck themselves.

Of course, if these "small" men didn't put the brakes on their significant other's efforts, she probably WOULD end up cheating and/or leaving. Not that the small man didn't have it coming.

Anyone ever known a woman in an abusive relationship?

I have known a couple. I have always asked why the women stay. Many do because they see the attention they get from their husbands as attention. Something they want even if it is bad. Others can't see the forest throught the trees. They start to believe that their husband isn't mean, it is that they did something wrong.

I friend of mine, nicest guy you will ever meet, married a woman that had been in several abusive relationships. After several years, she started to accuse him of stuff. Stuff that most women would love their mates to do, like laundry without being asked, helping with the dishes. His wife saw that as trying to control her. As not feeling she was capable of doing those things on her own.

She kept at it and finally divorced him. Sure, he is much better off but it still wasn't easy since the guy loved her.

Abused women need help, almost like an intervention.

Chris - Really great article and it highlights a true (but vastly under appreciated) problem. The craziest thing about these "men" (and I use that term loosely to describe these insignificant little bastards) is that they project all of their insecurities on their own women is because they are hypocrites. I can think back on any time I've been involved in a romantic relationship with someone who was truly insecure: most of the time they just project onto you what they would do in your situation. In other words, these are likely men who if they got into shape (while their wives or girlfriends stayed fat) would be off screwing around on them hence they need to sabotage because they are convinced that everyone else is as weak-minded as they are.

Horrible to think that with the obesity epidemic we face in this country, much of the fight comes with those who are supposed to care and love most, those struggling to be healthy.

Kuz
- Return with honor.

I've had several friends who tried to get in shape but their girlfriend or wife managed to ruin it because they don't want them to look better than them or get the attention of better looking females. So it's not just small men and big women. This wife of a friend that I tried to help get in shape, she was really cold hearted bitch that just sit her ass on the couch all day long smoking 2 packs a day. I would come over to their house before we'd head for the gym, she was totally ignoring me smoking a cigarette, looking all pissed off while her husband gets ready. Talk about awkward moments.

It is all about control ? control of the women means more power to them. This may be in the sense of overt abuse ? in effect, ?she is mine and keeping her fat keeps her unhappy which means she is more likely to stay because she has no where else to go and I can do whatever I want to her? or the less mentioned sense of covert manipulation use of the word ?If she improves herself in anyway it makes me look more like a small dicked fool and I cannot tolerate that so I will sabotage her to make myself look better in comparison.?
Women respond to this in classic abusive relationship fashion; they often accept it. Men who practice this deserve to be donkey punched back to the stone age (although I do not use exactly that language in therapy ? strong yes, but not donkey punch). I do not have a huge problem with other people?s fitness choices, but when they make them under duress I get pissed (like watching parents feed their kids McFriedDeath for every friggen meal ? sorry, small rant).

A woman I know had her stomach stapled. Her choice, her business. Before she had it done, she went through counseling and was told that an extremely high percentage of couples don't survive the weight loss. I've been watching for a year and I see strong signs that he is pushing her away. He's always been fit and healthy, but hes underemployed and pretty much a loser. She's got a good job, getting a good body and has an excellent brain.

Well, about 2 years ago my wife (who had been a knockout when I met her then got rather large after our daughter was born) lost some 70lbs off her 68" frame. I totally supported her and encouraged her. Of course, once she realized that she looked better than me, she found some other guy that apparently did as well. Next time I think I'm going to encourage not getting fat in the first place as opposed to losing it. I've noticed couples that stay in shape together versus getting in shape together tend to get along better in the long run. Could be that common interest is part of what brought them together in the first place.

On a side note, living in a redneck-y area I've noticed that grossly overweight women almost always are paired with some toothpick-skinny redneck guy. Better him than me, I guess.

Getting in shape ruins relationships. I had a girlfriend of two years that, once I stopped being my flabbish self and dropped close to sixty pounds of excess blubber, turned into a raging hosebeast. Not only did she rip me apart for spending "so much time at the gym," she attacked every single other aspect of my life, including but not limited to...

The music I listened to.

My friends.

The fact that I checked the nutrition labels on foods - and hence, the "healthy" foods I ate.

My abstinence and avoidance of drugs and alcohol.

My clothing choices - she tried to emasculate me, and wished I dressed in a more "metrosexual" manner.

The list goes on and on. The jealousy and malevolence was particularly acute in part due to the reactions of our mutual friends. She had put on about fifteen pounds over her first year of college, and I went from being an obese individual with 25+ % bodyfat, to a lean mean asskicking machine :) Everyone commented on how great I looked, and, well, she received no such flattery.

Suffice to say, I broke up with her and moved on to FAR, FAR greener pastures.

Insecurity is lame.

I think it generally comes down to this - people, in general, suck ass, and want everyone around them to feel as crappy as they feel. I think it is a general human trait for a scumbag to try and bring someone back down to their level.

If someone else can improve their situation, then the scumbags have no excuses. Someone improving themselves highlights how piss-poor the scumbag truly is, and people, in general, don't like that.

"Getting in shape ruins relationships."

No, it should improve them, if it's a good relationship with sane, compatible people to begin with. If one half of a couple gets in shape and the other half goes nuts, well, you learned something very important about the other person, didn't you - hopefully before marriage and kids.

I'd say that - much like giving a person power - getting in shape reveals something; it brings out a trait that was already present, both in the now-healthy person and the partner in the relationship.

If improving oneself causes problems in a relationship (with the other person or with the improved person) then there was likely "issues" there to begin with. And again, the cure is probably having both people get into shape or pursue the same goal.

But yes, I think it's true that if one person is smoking, drinking, getting fat, being a loser, whatever, then nothing pisses him or her off worse than someone close - friend, relative or even spouse - adopting more productive or healthier habits. People are comfortable being losers as long as plenty of other losers are around. Throw in a successful person or a person wanting to make a positive change and it amplifies their "loserness." Losers hate that.

BTW, we had a contributor once here at T-Nation get a divorce. He said at the time that all the issues causing the divorce stemmed from the fact that his wife didn't care about lifting, fitness, supplements, nutrition, etc.

I'm not totally sure of that, but I'd say if bodybuilding, powerlifting or anything like that makes up a significant portion of your life, you better marry someone with similar interests - especially if you're going to be spending money and a lot of time on the lifestyle/sport/hobby.

If someone chooses not to take that advice, then expect 1) problems arising from the fact that you spend a lot of time/money on this stuff or 2) he/she will make you quit through overt or subtle manipulations.

Great topic, Chris!

Some topics tend to blow me away because they are extremely difficult for me to understand. Not because of any perfection on my part...but because of them being so contrary to my beliefs...

I don't get the need for others to a) control another person or b) to make another person miserable. I want a women (or any person) around me who are postive and feels good about themselves.

Maybe massif is right...misery loves misery...but it sure is one helluva' lousy way to live...


Mufasa

Chris Shugart wrote:
People are comfortable being losers as long as plenty of other losers are around. Throw in a successful person or a person wanting to make a positive change and it amplifies their "loserness." Losers hate that.

I think you hit the nail on the head, althought "losers" is pretty harsh. It's more like people are comfortable with the status quo and are happiest when other people back that up. Goes back to the "clan of the cave" days, I guess.

It takes quite a lot to see your life as mediocre, a lot more to admit to the mediocrity, even more to realise it's your problem to solve and a gigantic effort to do something about it. I have friends who have low-paying, dead-end jobs (and in Spain, that's a low, low standard) and when they have an opportunity to even consider something better, they are very very hesitant to share that with anyone. Whenever they tell me that they might have a better job offer, it's immediately followed up by "Don't tell anyone" because they know it's a bad idea. People don't intentionally shoot down other people's chances at success, but they do cause a rather viscous social friction.

I've seen people second-guess themselves, not talk about things and keep quiet so they won't "give themselves airs and graces" or "act like they're better than everyone else". The latter occurs a lot but since it's relatively invisible because of its ubiquity, you also feel like a complete tool both calling people on it, and going out of your way to not have it affect you.

Every person subscribes to the idea that "people" and "society" is what OTHER people do. So they don't see it as them bringing you down, it's not them, it's "people".

Also, if you are advancing or improving, you throw into sharp relief the fact that they are not. Another reason for "people" not to like that.

Great topic Chris, but I'd like to bring up the issu that there's two views here. Your significant other may be spoiling your life for two, not necessarily related, reasons:

1) Trying to live a better life, empowering yourself may hit her (or him, but I'll use the feminine here) in the face with what she is, and she's pissed her off.

2)Being a loser with someone whose got a domineering behaviour, you're being controlled/influence, and not being under her thumb is what makes her demean you, so she gets the upper hand again.

The main difference is that in the first issu where control is not the problem, troubles arise from the significant other coming to the realisation of her "loserness" and feeling bad about it. Demeaning becomes a way to avoid seeing that. The second is less insidious, but more freudian in nature, as people who accept to be dominated often have problems far deeper than thay realise.

The latter happened to someone I'm close, and with time, he understood that she could only feel good about herself by comparing herself to him, thus the demeaning

how bout big men and little women, you have made generalisations that insinuate that women are immune from this taint, in there psychological health.

whether this generalisation is delibrate or unknown, i dont know. but this is one place where male bashing should never happen. as this is T-Nation. T for testosterone.

the point is a good one, but as with all domestic abuse, if the victim isnt willing to respond to the abuser, then there nothing anyone else can do no matter how somone trys to help.

if the abuse is unknown to both victim and abuser, then it might be good too put forth the observation of what is going on. but the person doing this should know that they may be walking into a mind field. where the person you are trying to help may lash out, if the person trying to help is willing to sacrafice their own peace too help them,do so with caution.

if not they should not feel bad, because if people are dumb enough to becomed controled its thier fault. we all have a certain amount of free will, they chose that path. so they have to bear the cross. the consequences.

warnie,
So you know, nephrom pointed out that women can do the same thing to men and CS agreed.

Good points about getting involved. I've seen that happen. You try to help, they don't see it and they turn on you. And as CS pointed out in his post, you can't help someone that doesn't want it. Its like trying to talk a boulder into moving, it just won't happen.

A lot of very good points have been brought up.

Perhaps someone could tell me why women are psychotic? My wife is pretty damn lean, especially considering that she gave birth about 6 months ago. However she would never admit to looking good nekid!

Despite my constant reassurance she is constantly bitching about being fat. She runs 5-6 miles every morning she enters races and usually gets 1st place in her division and she qualified for the Boston Marathon in both the Chicago and the Des Moines marathons. To say she is in good shape would be an understatement! She may have more adipose tissue on her legs and ass than what she did a year and half ago but she is still pretty damn hot. I let her know what I think about her on many levels.

I just started the iron game in mid December. I have lost a considerable amount of BF while putting on an equal amount of muscle. I dont monitor my BF now and I didn't before I started but when I started lifting I was about 190 and 16-18% BF; now I am 185 and about 12% BF. I used to run a lot with her but then I started getting some serious knee pain so I stopped and got kind of fat.

Now that I am getting back into shape and gaining muscle she really seems to bitch about her weight. It also seems that we are having more arguments about stupid shit. I just wonder how much of this stems from her insecurity.

I just wonder what the hell is going on!

"So why don't these poor women haul ass or tell these dudes to go fuck themselves."


Most people don't understand the situation an abused woman is in; the mindset is almost impossible to comprehend unless you've been there, known someone who was there, or (like me) studied it extensively as part of a psychology degree.

Just an example, cops have to be very careful when dealing with domestic violence situations. Why? Because when they pull the drunk husband off his wife whom he's trying to strangle, the wife will often try to put a kitchen knife in the cop's back to "defend her man."

I think brainwashed prisoners of war are more mentally healthy than an abused woman.

BTW, this is multi-layered, but one tactic the abuser uses is to alienate her from friends and family. So, by the time she's ready to leave, she has multiple kids, no job, no family that associates with her anymore, no friends and the looming threat of more violence. And I'll bet she's fat too.

Chris Shugart wrote:
I'm not totally sure of that, but I'd say if bodybuilding, powerlifting or anything like that makes up a significant portion of your life, you better marry someone with similar interests - especially if you're going to be spending money and a lot of time on the lifestyle/sport/hobby.

If someone chooses not to take that advice, then expect 1) problems arising from the fact that you spend a lot of time/money on this stuff or 2) he/she will make you quit through overt or subtle manipulations.


Chris, I'm going to disagree with you here. The fact that your partner share similar interests is not as important that they respect you enough to support you in what you are doing.

My wife and I have very different interests, but we understand that whatever the other person is doing is important to them, and therefore should be supported. I believe that it's this sort of mutual respect that makes things work, not neccessarily sharing the same interests.