Proximity Bias: A Discussion

Alan is a walking sculpture: ripped, muscular, athletic. The guy knows his way around the gym, no doubt. His wife? Out of shape, borderline obese.

The other day Alan tells me that she just charged yet another build-your-dream-body-in- 8-minutes-a-day cardio gadget. He tries to offer her advice and teach her about weight training but she doesn't listen. He's just her husband of 17 years, not a "real" fitness expert like the guy on the infomercial.

Sandy is a sought-after trainer that's been featured in a couple of women's fitness magazines. In spite of hypoglycemia and a family history of weight problems, Sandy is shredded, with visible abs and the kind of definition most guys would kill for. That gal knows her stuff about diet and nutrition and has helped hundreds of her clients drop fat and reshape their bodies.

Sandy's mother? Just joined Weight Watchers, became a lifetime member in fact. She could get free personalized training and fitness advice from Sandy, a service other women pay through the nose for, but she doesn't do it. Sandy is just her daughter after all, not one of those "real" diet experts like at Weight Watchers.

Chris is a writer and editor for the Internet's top fitness and bodybuilding site, T-Nation.com. He works for Biotest, the leader in quality, cutting edge supplementation. In spite of this, Chris's female friends and family members still buy the latest garbage fat loss supplements they see on TV (which consist of nothing but 49 cents worth of diuretics and caffeine and cost 50 bucks.)

Then, after they buy this junk, they ask him if it's any good. When he tells them it sucks and suggests something better, they talk about how great it worked for Anna Nicole Smith and ignore his advice. . . then Chris has to chloroform them, hack them into tiny little pieces in the basement, and move to a different state. . . again.

Yep, we've all experienced it: our friends and loved ones will listen to anyone when it comes to training, diet, and supplementation -- except us. It's true for you and it's even true for those of us in the biz. There's even a name for this phenomenon, popularized by Dr. John Berardi:

Proximity bias: The tendency to discount information that's presented by a source who's familiar to us.

For whatever reason, human beings are apt to listen to information from outside sources rather than sources inside their family or immediate acquaintances. This means that if you tell your fat aunt that morning carbs are unlikely to be stored as fat, you'll be dismissed as a bloomin' idiot who has taken the name of Atkins in vain. . . in spite of the fact that you're lean and healthy and she's fat and miserable.

But if said fat aunt hears the exact same bit of advice proffered by Richard Simmons on TV, well, it becomes the word of God and an undisputed nutritional fact.

Weird, isn't it?

The question is, what can we do about it? One suggestion is to make your case and let your actions and results speak for themselves. Maybe, possibly, eventually, your friends and family will realize that you just might be onto something.

The problem is, it hardly ever happens.

Nope, your fat aunt or ectomorphic brother or unhealthy spouse will usually stick to their guns. I can't tell you how many times fat women (who have been fat for 20 fucking years) will tell me how great Weight Watchers is. . . or Jenny Craig or LipoSuck Extreme or the Gazelle.

Me: "So, Weight Watchers really works, huh?"

Fat Broad: "Oh yes, I've been going to meetings for ten years!"

Me: "But, um, you're still fat. In fact, you get a little fatter every year. You're always on a diet yet you're getting fatter and fatter and more and more unhealthy. Hey, I've been fat, I lost it and have kept it off. I learned a lot along the way. Wanna try it my way?"

Fat Broad: "Sure, you've achieved the same goals I'm after, and you've helped hundreds, maybe thousands, of others do the same thing through your articles, but Chris, you're my nephew, so what can you possibly know? I've changed your diaper after all."

Okay, that's not exactly how these conversations go, but that's the underlying gist.

So, leading by example usually won't cut through the familial blinders. What will? Is there any point in trying to battle the beast of proximity bias? If so, how?

My friend Sandy, the trainer mentioned above, says this:

"The key is knowing that you did all you could. You were there for them and offered them the information. It's like a relay race. Your job is to hand them the baton. It's their job to grab it and run with it. If they drop the baton or choose not to run, it's not your fault! So try not to get frustrated or take the 'rejection' personal. Leave the door open -- they know you have the information they need, and when they're ready to listen to you (if ever), they'll come back."

Not bad advice. I think the "pain" of proximity bias is amplified by the closeness of our relationship to the person rejecting or ignoring our advice. If the chubby chick at work smirks at your advice to go easy on the cardio and lift weights instead, it doesn't bother us as much. But if it's our spouse or mother? Much tougher situation.

So, our discussion point today: How do you handle proximity bias?

Let's hear it.

This is the WORST. It happens all around me since I'm really the only person with a food log. They all think I'm a "health freak" and it's real annoying. Whenever I try to give any small piece of advice they think I'm being condescending and never take my advice. I'm not as qualified as some are to give advice but I have lost a good amount of weight, kept it off, and built some muscle in the process, so I'm better off than most of them. If they do ask for advice anything I tell them is "impossible" because they "have to drink at least 2 nights a week." Idiots.

I think the only solution is to give advice only when asked for it. They probably never will take your advice but at least you put the information out there. Its futile.

A co-worker asked me twice how to lose some weight. I gave her the same advice both times (she ignored it the first time). The second time she decided to modify what I told her by not doing any of it.

I just shrug and say to myself, 'She just doesn't really want to put in the effort to achieve the results she wants.' Then I move on. I'm not going to let it get to me.

Most times, I just tell someone that asks a few basic tips and then leave it at that. I have given the information and it is up to them to use it.

If you dwell on the fact that people are ignoring you or think you are a dolt, you are going to stress yourself out.

Chris, good one. Sounds strangely familiar...

And they took offense at him.
But Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honor."

Matthew 13:57

A centuries old dilemma, indeed. I am blessed, so far, to have been listened to. I'm sure a day will come, however...

I've had a similar experience recently. I recently started working at this company, and a co-worker asked me about fat loss and training. During the conversation, I learned that a bad back prevented her from exercising, and she went to physio for rehabilitation; however, she still wouldn't perform the exercises prescribed even though doing them would help her return to things she enjoyed like running and yoga. I asked her 'so why not?' 'You know, I really don't know!' was her reply. And she continued working.

I think the best way to do deal with the bias is a) to set a consistent example, and b) realise you're part of the exposure complex for that person. As in sales, where a person will decide whether to buy a product after meeting it on separate occasions in some form (billboard, magazine, word of mouth, etc.), people may need several 'exposures' before they decide that what you eat or how you train is beneficial. A conversation with you might be that catalyst; or it might be another step in the chain.

This is a funny situation indeed, and by funny I mean "count to ten and avoid punching people when answering".

Out of my family, only myself and my sister-in-law workout regularly and take care about what we use to fuel our bodies. We are on opposite ends of the spectrum though, she is deep into yoga and I am into lifting.

We are the only people in the family that listen to each other. She helps me with stretching and I help her with strength training.

Since we both operate on diferent ends of the fitness spectrum, you would think at least one of us would be right when questioned by our family and friends, but no.

After working with her husband and being rejected, he came to me for advice and rejected mine as well. This was a few years back. After rejecting us both, he had the nerve to ask us both seperatly if we thought the Subway plan that the punk Jared used would work.

Count to ten...Count to ten...Count to ten...nah, just punch him! He is family after all.

Rejection of your advice is something you just should never take personally, whether your advice was asked for or not. You just have to give the advice and move on -- don't ever expect results to come out of it.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink."

"You can open the door, but it is up to the other to walk through."

I'm sure there are plenty of similar sayings in cultures worldwide giving the same advice.

I suppose the best advice to give someone close who has shown the unwillingness to follow your advice (especially after giving the same advice more than once) is to direct that someone to another person they don't know who will give the same advice you always have.

Of course, since nobody really knows anyone else posting here, are we therefore all holding each others' advice in much higher esteem?

don't have this problem...all of my relatives think I'm some sort of genius...

fools!

I'm constantly asked for advice, they sit and listen to everything I say as if it were gospel...no matter what subject (fitness, relationships, finances, education, whatever)...they think I have some keen insight and wisdom to nearly everything...

I try to convince them that I'm a slow witted dope, but they'll have none of it...

friends and relatives take me seriously and I have no idea why...it's like living in bizarro world...

ex: relative or someone I know asks me a question...yammer, yammer, yammer...then I reply with something like this: "I don't know why you're asking me, I'm an idiot, but here's my take on the situation blah, blah, blah..."

obviously everyone I know needs therapy...

I have three people in my family that I have directly experienced this with. Two of them, my mother and sister, will not listen to me to save their life (literally). My brother once didn't listen to me but eventually came around. Now my brother has lost almost 100lbs in the last couple of years and is fairly muscular. My mom and sister are both still very overweight. My sister is getting worse (while being a card carrying member of Weight Watchers), my mom has somewhat leveled off at least.

I wish I knew how to get them to listen and understand. I think the biggest problem is jealousy. You aren't jealous of the infomercial guru who is pushing a product. You look at them as genetic gods with all the answers (at least some do). But you look at your son, nephew, cousing, etc., and how successful they are and you think- damn we have similar genes, how is it working for him? He must be lucky. Certainly it's not just hard work, because I work hard, it must be something else. It's a shame really.

I have resorted to using a technique used by JB. You let the person know right up front that they probably won't be able to follow your advice because it is too difficult for most people. You tell them that it is more about self discipline and less about a particular method. You let them know that if you have the discipline then the method is actually pretty easy.

Usually they either say your right and move on or they feel challenged and will attempt more than they would have if you just gave them some advice.

Not saying it gets great results, but at least they figure out that they need to do something more than follow a particular plan for miracle results.

I know it's not exactly a positive way of helping people, but at least it's honest and you don't feel so rejected.

That article shoots straight to my heart. it almost brings tears to my eyes, but i'm at work. i've had this personally happen to the point where it was partly a cause for a break up of my last relationship of 4.5 years. I loved the girl and wanted to be a positive influence in her life just for her physical and mental health. I tried to stear her towards a healthy diet and excersice lifestyle, but she resisted. she went to the point of saying that i was putting her down and badgering her. She built up anymosity towards me.

I get the same crap from my parents and others. my father has high blood pressure and arterial schlerosis and refuses to take omega 3's and garlic pills. both my parents hate the fact that we take all these supplements and continue excercising for all these years. laters pk

This pisses me off!!!

This article is 100 percent right.
When i was younger i was always trying to get my dad into weightlifting but he would never take me seriously about the things i would explain to him.

Also i have one of those friends,
that type of guy that acts all enthusiastic about lifting weights and mega determined but if you ever give him advice he'll say he'll try it but you know he's just gonna go home and do his crappy concentration curls and ignore my carefully thought out exercise recommendations. I asked him about it at my work recently

Him: 'oh yeah, sure i been doin it and it's great! i modified it a bit *even though i'm fucking clueless about this type of stuff* and its working well.'
Me: 'okaay.... so what did you change?'
Him: 'oh, just like... *all of it because i'm an unmotivated loafer* dropped a few exercises.


aarrgh!
rant over

My family tends to ignore what I say to them, wait about a week and then repeat what I had said to me. This angers me like nothing else in the world because it happens atleast once a month.

My sister asked me to help her with weightlifting. I showed her a very basic program she could do in very little time. The very next day she spent $40 on a dvd that had the exact same movements i showed her in it. Afterwards she asked if anybody wanted ice cream.

I give up.

Yeah, I'm in college, so obviously I have idiot friends who think NO supplements are "amazing" and tell me i "have to try them" even after I tell them they're total crap in front of the 130-pound salesman at Vitamin Shoppe as they buy them anyway on daddy's credit card. This guy doesn't even work out legs, he's got bird legs and looks ridiculous because his upper body is pretty developed. THAT makes me angry. NO-Xplode is crap.

HA! I WISH!

I'm a nutritionist and am also qualified as a PT, every time I speak to someone down the pub, at a party or meet up with a friend (especially female) the conversation invariably turns to health, diet and fitness - I am starting to feel a little one dimentional. I peppered with questions like;

What should I eat?
Will cake every week make me fat?
How do I make my arse smaller/bigger/wider/thinner/rounder?
Should I eat less carbs?

Not only I am expected to give a sensible answer to these oh so general questions, but I am expected not to charge!

I can only be thankful I'm not a MD so I don't get people talking to me about their piles or warty johnsons.

This hits home with me SO much. It blows my mind. And most recently, after asking the girl who asked me for a diet/workout regimen if she was really, REALLY committed to sticking to it, and that it had to be a committed lifestyle change, and getting an inspiringly positive answer from her . . . I wrote up a VERY detailed workout and diet routine, with lengthy, idiot-proof explanations of every detail just to make her life and her adherence to it as easy as possible, and a few weeks later . . . ?

It was like I had just farted in the wind.

I say my peace, and then keep my mouth shut, a crustier version of below.

Here's what I do.

Works GREAT.

I write JB's 7 rules. I then say "If you eat according to this you will have what you want"

It's funny cause you'll soon have conversations like this.

"Summers comming up, I need to lose weight"
'Did you follow the 7 rules'
"Next week, I'm going to"
'Good'



"You need to write me a workout, I joined Bally's and they charge out the ass for training and I don't know what to do"
'Did you eat the 7 rules?'
"When I get paid next ill buy good food"
'Good'

"Oh my God!! There is a re-union on the 19th! I need to lose 20 pounds at least in a month!!!!"
'Did you ever looks at the 7 rules I gave you'
"No, but I got Body-For-Life but that was to complicated"
'Follow the rules'
"But I need to lose 20 pounds in a month! If I just don't eat for like a week and work out two times a day will that lose me weight fast enough?"
(Unfortunatly, I lost my cool on that one)
Oh, and she went to her reunion just as heavy as she was 6 months ago, when I gave her the 7 rules

Yes, nothing like the pear shaped guy with the chocolate drop man boobs in the coffee shop telling your girlfriend she should do weights to maximize fat loss!!!!Wow!

9 years lifting, 5 years in the industry, countless hours spent programming, training, researching, continuing education and experimenting, but hey, croissant boy?s advice is better than mine!!!!

Chris-
Having been a fat bastard before, I know that these people are really just plain miserable. When, from time to time, someone asks for advice, I can only give them general guidelines. When they reject the advice that they ask for (like reading everything humanly possible on this site), I realize something else. They really don't want to upset their comfort zones. They've been lazy, unmotivated roundbodies for a long time, and have gotten comfortable with it. Investing real work, and listening to their son or coworker, would mean that they were doing something wrong. And, when do these types ever feel comfortable saying they were dreadfully, awfully, indisputably wrong?
Bottom line---I brush them off. So what if they don't listen? Just because they feel cozy squirming into their umpteen sizes too small pants (with the aid of a powerful lubricant) doesn't mean that I have to subscribe to their self-defeating philosophy. Knowing that the choice I make is the better one is enough for me.
But, to paraphrase the adage, "Reject me once, shame on you. Reject me twice, shame on me." When they come back to me because they need to lose like a gazillion pounds before they go on a cruise in ten days, my advice is simple...Go to a drugstore. Buy every diuretic and laxative on the shelf. Shit and piss yourself into blissful oblivion and wait for your organs to fail. Sure, you'll be dead. But, you won't be miserable anymore. And, think of all the weight you'll be able to lose, and keep off...forever.

Yes, I have had this happen to me many times before as have most of us who have been doing this for a while.

I think part of the problem is me and my over enthusiastic response. I expect them to jump into the same depth of water I am in and start swimming laps. Chris has stated before for us to remember where we were at when we started and the many baby steps it took us to get to where we are today.

this is exactly what happens to me at my job.I tell people what supps to buy what not to buy. write them workout programs. tell them how to eat etc. the next day or time i see them guess what! they just bought some creatine capsules from wal-mart, overpriced creatine kool-aid and some soy protien. then they go on about there flex routine and how they're going to get huge.

Chris, like allways, you'r 100% right!
Man,like you read my mind.
I'm 20, did my first 2 bodybuilding contest last month. On the first contest I came second, two weeks later, on secon show, I won.
I had been "the fat guy" since I can remember, and now am the junior bodybuilding winner.

For the last 3 years, I'm trying to help my mother lose fat, but NO, "The dr. (pick a name) from my magazine (pick a name) says this and that".
Advices like "eat oranges on fool moon", and "don't eat protein" are driving me crazy!
"How can you know better than a DOCTOR?"

Oh man, it dosn't worth bothering.

This could not be more true!

I find (as a female) that very few guys will accept any of my training advice as being valid.

While I am definitely learning and growing, most of the same principles/applications that have been effective for me could new/useful to anyone.

Many of my female friends simply cannot accept that I am telling the truth when I say that I lift heavy! (Since I am not "huuuge")

I think it takes a great deal of strength and humility to accept help from a close source. It usually means expressing truths and feelings that most people want to avoid confronting.

Dealing with a gadget, book or machine means that people can avoid having to discuss or explore their weaknesses and jump right to their goal without examining/correcting behaviours or emotions. (This is the hardest but most important step for many!)

One of my best sources of information and learning has always been my best (male)friend of 10 years who has always offered me great advice, taught me proper form and good nutrition. Now that I've sought out more sources of learning, I feel like I can offer him some new perspective... pretty cool.