Sup T-men and women?

I've been reading the BB board for awhile, but haven't had a reason to post until recently.

I've been lifting for about three years. I started out seriously obese, unconditioned and untrained. I started with 3x a week TBT, first a program from "The New Rules of Lifting" and then Rippetoe's beginner program. I worked with a trainer for about 4 months doing a boot camp style routine and around the same time picked up trail hiking as my primary cardio source.

I'm currently recovering from a slip and fall knee injury, so I've had to take a break from any leg work. I'm currently working a 3x a week 3 way split; Chest/Shoulders, Back and Arms.

I'm sure there are holes in my program, things that I'm over doing and things that I'm not working enough. I plan to stick with this program for the next six weeks, but I would love some feed back on how I'm doing and what I can adjust.

Beginning stats:
Height 71"
Weight ~ 285 lbs
Body Fat ~ 40%

Current stats:
Weight 194 lbs
Body Fat ~ 25%

Current program:
Chest/Shoulders -
DB bench press
Incline DB press
Seated overhead DB press

Back -
Wide grip pull down
Low cable row
Prone "pullups" (lay under a bar in the power rack, take a bench press grip and pull your chest up to the bar)

Arms -
Seated DB curl
Pullover extensions
Rope pulley curl
Rope pushdown

Everything is done for 8 sets ramping up to a max intensity 6 - 8 rep set on set #7. Set #8 is either a 1-3 rep set at higher weight or a 12 rep set at 60% of my 6-8, it depends on how I'm feeling that day and which lift.

I do trunk work every workout; various crunches, hanging leg raises, planks etc., usually two exercises for 3 repped out sets.

My 6 week goal is to add reps or weight to every exercise every week. I've started pretty modestly, I'm trying for no missed reps.

My short term physique goal is to get back up to around 200 lbs and get BF down to ~ 20%.

Thanks for taking the time to read and for any feed back.

Edited for way too long. Sorry.

Nice job so far, congradulations.

Here is my advice.

*Stick with rippetoe's and make the necessary changes to it.
*You should work your good leg, leg press, leg extensions, and leg curls.
*Your set/rep scheme doesn't look too good to me. Way too many sets for starters.

Get back to rippetoe's and if you want to ramp, ramp up to a max set of 5 on your 3-4th set, and then try for 2 total sets around that weight.

If you need to, switch to upper/lower and 3-4x a week. (its all outlined in the starting strength wiki- google it)

For a 3 day TBT plan I would do this.

1-

Bench
Pullup
1-leg press
Tricep Row

2-

Incline or shoulder press
Row
Leg ext/leg curl
Shoulder raise
biceps

Or something similar, and adjust it how you'd like it and need it.

Go 3x5 or 5x5 on all the main lifts, (bench, shoulder press, 1-leg press, etc.) and then do something like 3x8 or 4x10 (whatever) for all the isolation stuff and extras like shoulder raise, and leg ext.

Good luck, hope this helps

Carlitosway

Wow, this response is..awesome, thanks very much, this is exactly what I was looking for.

Let me clarify a couple of things.

Out of those 8 sets no more than 2-3 are ever taxing, I'm including warm ups in my total volume. I'm not that young, and even though I'm nowhere near my goals I have a lot of wear on my joints...from lack of use as much as over use. I've found that extensive movement specific warmups keep everything happy.

As for lower body stuff, I'm in active PT right now. We're doing rehab work twice a week. My PT is a lifter, he's got no problem with me being in the gym, but no leg work outside of PT for now.

As far as upper body barbell work, I've got a twice torn right rotator, my shoulders are pretty stiff in general and it seems like I can never make it very far with BB presses before something gives.

I know this could read like a list of excuses, but I see it as being realistic. I've learned a lot through trial and error and the little bit of coaching that I've had. I know there are better ways to do things (why I asked), but I do have a rationale for most of what I do in the gym.

I like dumb bell pressing. The ability to tweak position and ROM for each arm helps my shoulders a LOT, but, that said, I'm finding that those three repetitive exercises are getting a little too taxing as the weight is getting heavier. I think I'm going to take your advice and swap one (incline press maybe?) out for cable flys.

What would you recommend for rear delt work?

I think what I'm calling a pullover is like what you described. I use a preacher curl bar with my hands in the middle neutral grip. Laying flat on a bench looking up I set the bar up like a skull crusher, lower it below my head to a stop, raise with triceps then extend fully at the top like a bench press lockout, repeat.

I think I might also take you up on swapping the pushdown out for something else, I'm moving most of the stack on them and not feeling much.

This current cycle is my first with an arm day, in fact...it's the first that I've put much thought into direct arm work at all, and I really like it. That said, when I get back to my legs, I'm pretty sure I want to move to a 4 day split.

Thanks again for the suggestions, a lot to think about here. And yeah, 200 @ 12-15% is the idea, but I like to set small goals. My first was 250 lbs, then 200lbs, sub 200lbs, 1 strict pull up...My current goals are getting BF% down while keeping roughly the same weight, and working up to 5 strict pull ups...once I get there, I'll set a new goal.

Like I said, realistic. I started out as a fat ass, now I'm a pretty normal looking guy, more work, more muscle, more attention to WHAT I'm working on and we'll see where I end up. Also, right on about why I posted in this section. I've always been a big guy, I want to be a big guy that looks good.

I think this looks ok, but since you cant train legs, why not take the advantage to train more back ( the biggest area in the upper body ).

So here is an example of what you can do:

day1: lats and biceps.
pulldown with wide grip.
pulldown with reversed grip or neutral grip.
prone pull-ups.
pull-over with DB or in machine.
bicepscurl of some sort.

day2: chest and delts.
DB flat-benchpress.
DB incline-benchpress.
flyes or pec.dec.
DB shoulderpress.
lateral-raises.

day3: upperback and triceps.
DB one-arm-rows.
chest suppported rows on bench or on machine.
facepulls/reversed flyes. ( this hits rear deltoid )
shrugs.
a triceps movement.

btw: congrats with getting your weight down, hope you reach your next goal.

florelius.

would love to see before and after pics if you've got them. Great job, man

Ah, so splitting the back up into two days and working the arms in that way...I like that. I'm going to have to add this into the big bucket of shit that I need to think about in moving forward. Thanks!

Uh, where is your leg workout? Where is your shoulder work out?

Your program falls very short for a complete bodybuilding program. Please refer to my "Bodybuilding Bible" thread. If you violate any of the guidelines in that thread, your program isn't complete - and I mean this with all seriousness, being that every successful bodybuilder on earth (except for the DC posse) does what I go over in that thread.

I'll be back later for a free critique of your program.

Pretty much this. I know that this isn't an ideal program, that's why I'm on here asking for help. I'm going to do this for a few more weeks, because I like finishing things. By then I should be able to start working my squats and deads again, and then I'm going to start on whatever program this thread ends up leading me to. Thanks guys.

I'm kind of surprised that no one has asked about these yet, but if anyone is interested here is a sample days diet (yesterday) and my current working weights

7AM
1/2 cup of cooked brown rice, 2 scrambled eggs, 2 cloves of garlic, 1 cup of chopped broccoli, 2 tbs extra virgin coconut oil

1 cup of plain whole milk yogurt, 1 tsp honey, small handful of raisins

9:30 - 11AM
On the road for work, 2 pieces of venison jerky (I think I estimated these at about 10 grams of protein a piece), 2 large handfuls of 'trail mix' (I carry around a big bag of unsalted raw almonds, raw walnut halves and natural raisins)

2PM
Chicken salad wrap with bacon, lettuce and tomato on a whole wheat tortilla
cup and a half of french fries

6PM
Another large handful of 'trail mix'

8PM(post workout)
1 whole egg, Ground venison, broccoli, garlic stir fried with brown rice and 2 tbs extra virgin olive oil
probably 1.5 cups of the venison and broccoli mixture over 1 cup of the brown rice

1 cup of whole milk plain yogurt, 1 tsp honey, small handful of raisins, small handful of almonds


Current working weights (not max lifts):
Flat DB bench - 40LRx5
Incline DB bench - 35LRx5
Overhead DB press (seated) - 35LRx5

Pulldown (wide grip) - 100x6
Low Row - 90x7

Seated DB curl - 25LRx6
Pullover extensions - 40x6
Rope pulley curl - 70x6
Rope pushdown - 80x6

Bricknyce: I checked out your bodybuilding bible thread, good stuff, you've clearly put a lot of thought into this whole thing.

I'm trying to put together my next 6-8 week program now using the insights that I've picked up from this discussion. This is just a rough idea, any input from any of you folks would be greatly appreciated.

This assumes that I'm back to working my legs by this point. I'm off crutches since Friday, so it seems likely that I should be.

Day 1
Lats/Biceps
Neutral grip pullups
Pulldown
Drag curl
Rope pulley curl

Day 2
Chest/Triceps
DB incline bench
DB bench with hands close for triceps emphasis
Low cable flys
Pullover extensions

Off

Day 3
Shoulders/Upper back
High incline DB press (seated overhead press)
High pulls
Shrugs
Reverse flys

Day 4
Legs
Front squat
RDL
Standing calf raises
??

Off

Off

Any thoughts?

You didn't follow the guidelines I gave in my thread. EVERY workout you designed goes against them.

DAY 1
> You have not 1 rowing exercise and not enough exercises for the back as a whole. You have no isolation exercises for the back.
> You don't have one primary exercise for the biceps. Drag and rope pulley curls are secondary and tertiary exercises.

DAY 2
> Why would you emphasize the triceps in a lift done for the chest?
> You have zero primary exercises for the triceps. One exercise isn't enough for ANY muscle group if you are to hit it only once per week.

DAY 3
> You have only one exercise for the front/medial delts. There is not 1 isolation exercise for this muscle group either.
> High pulls are an Olympic lift.
> Reverse flyes might be better off placed on back day.

DAY 4
> Again - you have only 1 exercise for the quads and only 1 for the hamstrings and only 1 for calves. There is no isolation work for quads or hams because of this.

Did you really read my thread?

This is what a real chest workout looks like:
Incline barbell press
Flat dumbbell bench press
Incline fly
Pec-deck fly

This is what a shoulder workout looks like:
Overhead press
Lateral raises
Cable lateral raises
Dumbbell shrugs

This is what a back workout looks like:
Chinups
Dumbbell rows
Machine pullovers
Cable row
Rear delt raises
Deadlifts

This is what a quad workout looks like:
Squats
Lunges
Leg extensions

This is what hamstring workout looks like:
Glute ham raises
Pullthroughs
Leg curls

This is what a triceps workout looks like:
Close grip bench
Skullcrushers
Triceps pressdowns

This is what a biceps workout looks like:
Bar curls
Incline curls
Concentration curls

This is what a calf workout looks like:
Standing calf raise
Seated calf raise

I have no idea if these workouts are for you, but this should give you an idea.

if you can do frontsquat, you can do deadlifts.

the most easy thing to do is to follow a program made by people with experience.

my cousin who is a senior powerlifter, gave me the 5/3/1 book. he train by these principles himself.

its alot of info about the 5/3/1 on this site, or you can just by the book.

or you can use the program bricnyse made for you.

btw I think your setup looks ok, but maybe the more experienced guys should look at it.

good luck :)

Jason:

That's more like it for biceps, but I still think rope and drag curls are shit for someone starting out who is desperate for muscle mass. If they work for you, do them. I believe--this is just me though; I don't tell people what to do--that there are better secondary and tertiary exercises out there for the bis: incline dumbbell curls, concentration curls, machine curls, standing dumbbell curls.

You didn't list close-grip bench presses as one of your triceps exercises. You listed dumbbell bench presses with elbows in. Close-grip bench presses coupled with two secondary and/or tertiary exercises is a great setup.

What do you mean by "alternating" barbell and cable rows? Supersetting? Or using one for a few weeks or months and then switching to the other likewise?

Dumbbell and machine pullovers and straight-arm pulldowns are isolation exercises for the lats and upper back.

Cable and dumbbell lateral raises are a near-necessity for bodybuilders.

I just suggested rear delt raises for back day because it works nicely on that day because, after all, you work your rear delts with every lat and upper-back exercise; there is almost no rear delt activation with lateral raises and overhead presses.

I've never seen ONE famous and successful bodybuilder use high pulls while following their BODYBUILDING routines. It's not meant for high reps (>6) and would have to be done at the beginning of a workout that had "slower", less explosive exercises. And are you referring to a REAL high pull done from the floor, or some bastardized version - like an upright row with a lot of "body English"?

Use a close-grip barbell bench press for your triceps, not a close-grip dumbbell press.

You have two vertical-pull (chins and pulldowns) exercises and only one row. Add another rowing exercise. I personally would ditch one of the vertical-pull exercises and add in stiff-arm pulldowns or machine pullovers, as you have not one isolation exercise for the back.

Add in more quad exercises when your knee gets better. Why did you ditch stiff-legged deadlifts. You can do all three exercises - GHRs, stiff-legged deadlifts, and leg curls. That's one primary exercise, one secondary, and one tertiary.

Thanks dude! There is a lot of meat in this post. I'm going to stop speculating at this point, I think with the advice from this thread I'll have something good to work with when I'm ready to move on.

In regards to goals, I'm currently working my calorie intake upwards. I want to see what I can gain over the next four months or so before I worry any more about bf% etc.

Brick knows his shit... So you got to try what he said and gauge what works best for you. I also mentioned about a main tri movement. close grip db press just isn't going to cut it. look to the smith machine man, or try close grip press off the pins in the power rack (try and see if your shoulders do fine with it)

I think for the barbell rows he was thinking about going heavy I imagine blasting up to 6-8 reps or something and then using the low cable rows for some high rep work.

Whatever back thickness exercises I do...I always pick one all out set of 6-8 reps and another one going up to 12-15 reps.:)