I know we have a Anabolic Diet thread on the S&N forum.

Unfortunately that forum has turned into fat-loss cult.

The AD thread is glutted with people who follow the diet for two weeks then jump into thread posting about how awesome it is to eat bacon all day....then they vanish.

I wanna know if any of you bodybuilding types have used the diet long-term to gain mass.( Or if you've tried it and think it sucks!)

I am interested in reading about how you manage your carb levels.

I've read the book and I've browsed the AD thread, it seems like most people (in that thread) are staying under 30 grams of carbs well past the induction phase.

It seems like they are more intrested in dropping or maintaining weight as opposed to mass building.

Curious.

It seems like the S&N posters don't follow the bodybuilding forum and the bodybuilders in this forum don't follow the AD.

I think I have my answer.

I'm at 20 months solid and will never go back. Here's a tip. If you're thinking about starting the AD because of what you can eat don't waste your time. That's what a lot of guys do. The reason for eating like I do is because of the results it brings not because you think it requires less discipline. I'm talking generally, not to YOU.

I'm all for better ways of doing things. I'm also for bucking the tried-and-true methods just because.

That being said, it's my humble opinion that trying to bodybuild with almost zero carbs (save for the weekend) is so tough a walk, that you'd have a difficult time convincing me it's a better way.

According to Tribulus, it IS possible to bodybuild on the AD and I really like his attitude toward the diet and the reasons to NOT start it. Hopefully he can provide more insight for you.

Yes, I had an extensive (2 year) mass gaining cycle with the Anabolic Diet. It was 1995-1997, when the book had first came out. I was a big follower of the "Serious Growth" folks back then....Leo Costa, Tom Platz, etc. and they were the first to market DiPasquale's Anabolic DIet. I dieted down with the diet over the summer of 95 to 178 lbs @ 5'10. I was 19 years old then. In September, I began a 3800-4000 calorie Anabolic Diet plan with liberal carb up weekends.

My training was with the "Big Beyond Belief" program that Platz and Costa wrote about in their book. I didn't take extensive notes on a training day by training day basis, but I did measure bodyfat, bodyweight, and arm measurements on a monthly basis. I'd have to go back and pull it out of my records, but it went something like this: Beginning- arms 16.5" Waist 32 inches, chest, 40 inches Bench press 295 x 1 Squat- 365 x 1.

Well, 18 months later after following this training program and the AD the numbers were- Bodyweight- 245 lbs, arms 19.75", waist 34 inches, chest 48.5 inches, Bench 445 x 1 Squat 405 x 13 reps ( 3 sets ). I know everyone is rolling their eyes right now saying this is total bull, but I stake my reputation as a charter member of T-Nation this is true.

Now granted all I did was go to school, deliver pizza two nights a week, eat, and train heavy. It was unbelievable strength and size gains, which really took me by surprise considering I had been serious about training all through my high school career. It must have been the right combination of food, training, and me maturing. One side effect that I really hated, and that is still with me is that I had MASSIVE MASSIVE stretch marks over my entire body. The were bright red and covered my arms all the way down to mid forearm, my chest, back, legs, ass, heck just about everywhere but my face! I have long suspected that perhaps I was deficient in PUFA in my diet from the AD which contributed to my skin not being as elastic as it needed to be.

After the AD bulking cycle, I dieted down to enter that silly EAS Lamborghini contest. I got back down to 195 ( very lean) and actually placed in the top ten in my age group in that contest and received a year's supply of three supplements.

To sum it up, 98% of all the muscle I have ever gained has been on the AD. I know I am do not have typical results, but it was very good to me. I would definitely recommend it( with a few mods) to anyone looking to gain solid bodyweight with minimal fat gain. It was extremely easy after about 3 weeks. THats all I can think of at the moment. Ask away if you have any Q's!

It IS possible to gain muscle and strength on a low-carbs diet.

My friend Hugo Girard, who used to be top 3 in the world in WSM (World Strongest Man) is training to make a comeback (after tearing his Achilles tendon) and he is eating a low-carbs diet. It is even stricter than the AD since he only has one carb-up day a week and he doesn't consume as much saturated fat as those using the typical AD.

While he is not a bodybuilder, the fact that as of last Friday he is 332lbs at 10.5% bodyfat (trust me, he IS that lean!) on 6'2'' kinda makes me believe that his results are applicable for bodybuilding purposes!

So yes, it is possible to gain on such a diet. But caloric intake must be high enough to fuel muscle growth. A lot of peoples consume too little calories when trying to gain on a low-carbs diet. In fact, it is one of the fat-loss benefits of such a diet: you are not that hungry and it's harder to get a high amount of calories in.

To build muscle you need:

- A sufficient amount of protein. Proteins are the building blocks of muscle; the raw material used to build a house. Without sufficient raw material you cannot build the house.

- A sufficient energy intake. Building muscle is an energy-dependent process. Yes you need protein to build muscle, but the process of using those protein to fabricate new muscle tissue require energy, and lots of it. See energy as the salary you pay the workers who are building your house: if you don't pay them enough they will not work as well and as fast. Furthermore, building muscle is just about the last priority of your body, behind all the other stuff necessary for survival. So only the energy left over from fueling your daily activities and bodily processes can be used to build muscle. Energy is essentially either carbs or fat. Protein can also be used for energy, but we don't want that! So if you cut your carbs, you NEED to have a high fat intake to have enough energy to fuel your daily needs THEN build muscle.

- An adequate amount of the essential nutrients. There are no ''essential carbohydrates''. However there are essential amino acids and essential fatty acids. Amino acid needs will be covered if protein intake is high. Essential fatty acids, especially the DHA/EPA ones are often underestimated yet they are essential for optimal muscle building, especially on a low-carbs diet.

- An insulin spike at the right time. To maximise post-workout recovery and anabolism we need an insulin spike post-workout. Normally we use carbs post-workout to spike insulin, but on a low-carbs diet we can't. However several amino acids do have pro-insulin properties. The BCAAs and especially leucine, glutamine, glycine can all spike insuline. Whey isolate also has a pro-insulin property. So it is very important to consume a large amount of protein, BCAAs (15-30g), glutamine (10-20g and more if your stomach can handle it) and ideally glycine (5-10g or more if your stomach can handle it).

- Glutamine, even though it is a somewhat overrated supplement, especially if you are eating carbs, can be very useful on a low-carbs diet because it can be turned into glucose than stored as glycogen in the muscle. So even though you are not consuming carbs, if your daily glutamine intake is high, your glycogen stores will never be depleted.

- Glutamine can also increase blood pH; in other words it makes the body/blood less acid. A high protein intake has the opposite effect (it makes it more acid). When blood pH is low (more acid) muscle building and fat loss are decreased. So ingesting 5g of glutamine with every protein meal is a very effective way of improving the efficacy of this diet. Note that green veggies have the same acid-lowering property as glutamine.

Thank you all for the replies.

Now that I look back it's possible I was under eating while on my AD experiment.

Thanks for posting CT that it is very interesting and helpful. But I do not understand why you would go on a low carb diet to replenish glycogen and have an insulin spike in other ways I thought the purpose of a low carb diet was to lower insulin It this just because some people feel like crap after eating carbs(I am one of them) and these things do not have that effect or is there another reason? And does the glutamine with protein containing meals go against the no carbs + fat rule I thought the point of that rule was to avoid an insulin spike when eating fat. I don't doubt tha these recomendations work I just don't understand why

How long do you have to be below 50g of carbs a day before your body starts using fats/ketones as a primary source of energy/ when can you have a carb up day? After that how long til the next carb up day, for muscle gain.

Also do you need to have large carb up days or can I just have oatmeal in the am, Surge PWO and maybe a nice juicy hamburger and some fries for dinner :)?

Okay, I'm reading about this Anabolic Diet and am actually fairly intrigued, because I'm still relatively high in BF, but after taking a year to get serious about losing weight I really don't want to sacrifice strength and size gains. That being said, with the anabolic diet requiring very few carbs, does this essentially mean no protein shakes? I assume if there's an abundance of red meat we could get our protein through that means, but I just want to make sure. Also, do things like Superfood or Surge play a large role into the Anabolic Diet?

Okay, thanks, this helps a lot. I still have a decent shelf of fat on me, but again, as a former-HUGE-boy, I want to continue to get stronger and bigger, while trying to get the rest of this fat off of my body. The type of plan you're suggesting sounds ideal, but another question stems from your suggestion.

You mentioned the general baseline for losing fat. If I stuck to this, and began losing fat, would I in turn lose strength or muscle size, or is going to help me maintain? I'm just curious, because when I went on my year-long diet stint I lost a significant amount of strength and some size, too.

Okay, again, thanks for the info. When I was dieting was before I really starting eating up the information at T-Nation, and was only raking in somewhere between 1,500-1,800 calories a day while trying to gain muscle mass... how little I knew. On top of that, I also probably only brought in somewhere between 100-150 grams of protein, so I definitely had no idea of what I was doing. Thankfully, I found T-Nation before it was too late.

So with my bodyweight being 165lbs, I should only consume 2680 calories to gain mass? My goal is to gain mass with little fat gain, it seems really hard when I only get 2680 calories a day. Do these numbers seem right

1.75xBW + 10%= 316g protein
.75xBW + 10%= 135g fat
50g carbs

I do also apologize to the OP for the thread hijack.