Hello, I've lifted before but never really knew what I was doing. I'm looking to improve my strength and just a little bit of bulk.
My questions are:
Warm up sets - do I do warm up sets for everything before doing any normal sets, or do I do a warm up set then the exercise move on to next exercise and do a warm up set then the exercise?
To confirm a warm up set should be around 50% of my max?
I never knew to do warm up sets before, so it's new it me.
Also, rep max. How often should I check my rep max and when testing how long do I wait between testing weight increments?
I plan on doing a 3 day split, day 1: backs and biceps day 2: legs, and day 3: chest and triceps. Any problems with this?
Also I do MA 5 days a week.
Join date: Nov 2006
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 3515
I assume when you say 'MA' you mean 'MMA'. Five days of 'MMA' plust three lifting days is a lot of exercise. Make sure to eat enough to grow.
Warm-ups: The purpose of a warmup is to prepare the muscles and the nerves to move big weight. Where you're at, you probably need one or two warm-up sets on your first exercise, and then you'll be good to go for that body-part after that. Example: Day 2, legs:
Squats: one set of ten reps at 135, one set of ten reps at 185, and then three sets of 10 at 225. The first two are warm-ups, the last three are working sets. After this, you can go and do leg extensions and leg curls, because your legs are already warmed-up from the squats.
As for rep-maxes, you should be progressing from workout to workout, if not week to week. So you should see a constant improvement in the weight or reps you can perform. If not, you should probably be eating more. So don't worry about testing your rep-maxes for a while; make sure your working weights are constantly increasing.
Otep wrote:
I assume when you say 'MA' you mean 'MMA'. Five days of 'MMA' plust three lifting days is a lot of exercise. Make sure to eat enough to grow.
Warm-ups: The purpose of a warmup is to prepare the muscles and the nerves to move big weight. Where you're at, you probably need one or two warm-up sets on your first exercise, and then you'll be good to go for that body-part after that. Example: Day 2, legs:
Squats: one set of ten reps at 135, one set of ten reps at 185, and then three sets of 10 at 225. The first two are warm-ups, the last three are working sets. After this, you can go and do leg extensions and leg curls, because your legs are already warmed-up from the squats.
As for rep-maxes, you should be progressing from workout to workout, if not week to week. So you should see a constant improvement in the weight or reps you can perform. If not, you should probably be eating more. So don't worry about testing your rep-maxes for a while; make sure your working weights are constantly increasing.
Are you really recommending straight sets? For legs, especially? Explain the benefit please. A ten rep 'warm up' with that much weight compared to the max working set is completely overkill. For the large majority a warm up that intensive will hinder progress. I'll give an example to prove my point. With incline dumbell press I do 5 reps of 35lbs, 45lbs, and 50lbs with no rest. My first work set is around 80lbs and final working set is currently around 110 for 8. A warm up set should not fatigue the muscle AT ALL, EVER. Increasing blood flow to the area is the only goal.
OP once a muscle is warmed up it doesn't need to be warmed up again. 1-2 warm up sets per muscle group.
Read about 'ramping'. There are a few good threads about it. Also read "the best of tnation" thread in the bodybuilding forum.
Join date: Nov 2006
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 3515
First off, what I wrote was an example to illustrate the difference between a 'warm-up' and 'working weight'. Most trainnees on this forum have their own program/leg-day. Far be it for someone to take example to illustrate a warm-up and plan their training around it.
The numbers aren't overkill. it's 60% and 80%, of the working weight, which is not unreasonable.
Second, yeah, I recommend straight sets to beginners. The benefit is an exposure and adaptation to a stimulus, and specific adaptation to that stimulus in the form of bigger and stronger muscles. Straight sets are simple, and beginners make progress with it from week to week. What part of this couldn't be assumed?
And how would 'legs' day be different from other workouts?
From what I read in the BB Training forum about 'ramping', it seems like a concept that occupies the grey-space between 'preparing the muscle to lift heavy' and 'lifting heavy', in that you can't tell where one ends and the other begins. <shrug> You do what works for you, I guess.
So you think 10 reps at 80% is not going to fatigue the muscle? 10 reps.
I can see using straight sets for a muscle group that isn't that big and strong on a beginner. For example bicep curls. I would not recommend a beginner take 5lb dumbells and ramp up to the 20's. In this case if the person can do db curls with 20lbs for 12 reps I'd recommend 1 set of 15 lbs and 2-3 sets of 20lbs. But for legs this wouldnt make sense at all. Your example of a chest warm up + work sets is much closer to ramped work sets done after the pecs and shoulders are fully warm.
With leg training you have the opportunity to start relatively light and still benefit the muscles. If a beginner back squats 200lbs for reps I'd recommend warming up with bodyweight squats and then the bar for a couple of reps (maybe 5 for a few sets). If the person wants to do 4 sets and wants to finish with 200lbs for 10 this is how I'd do it. 135lbs for 10, 160-170 for 8, 190 for 8 and finish with 200 for 10. Jumping into 200lbs x 10 for 4 sets will be much less productive and will take much longer to progress as opposed to ramped sets.
I also don't understand how being simple justifies the use of a method. It's not like increasing the weight on each set requires advanced mathematics. Just start light and add more weight. Explain how straight sets offer an 'exposure and adaptation to a stimulus' but ramped sets do not. Why are you implying that ramped sets prevent progression?
At what point would you stop recommending straight sets to someone? When they stop progressing and are then forced to learn a whole new way of lifting that could have be implemented from the very beginning?
Join date: Feb 2004
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Posts: 524
BONEZ217 wrote:
At what point would you stop recommending straight sets to someone? When they stop progressing and are then forced to learn a whole new way of lifting that could have be implemented from the very beginning?
I just want to point out that almost every trainee adapts their program as they mature as a lifter. Whether it be exercise selection, rep scheme, etc. everyone changes something at some point. Surely you're not doing the same thing you've been doing since day one?
Thank you very much for a response, your advise has been useful so far.
When you guys are talking about straight sets, you mean opposed to doing supersets? Before I researched any of this stuff, I tended to naturally gravitate towards doing supersets or trisets, though perhaps not correctly. My normal lifting was assisted pullups, then machine bicep curls, then incline abs and back to the beginning.
After reading about how it's important to wait 2 minutes between lifting, I've stopped doing that. After reading some more, it seems it's not a horrible idea, but to help muscle confusion I need to mix it up. Does this sound appropriate?
Also, back to what I was trying to ask about max rep, I've read it's important to know what it is, to help you gauge your weight selection. I mean if I'm going for doing 8 reps I can sort of feel what weight I'm going to be able to handle that at.
Should testing my RM in each exercise be done like once a month? When I test should I wait a minute or two before trying to lift an increased weight?
Also, my MA I did in fact mean MA. I do Japanese JJ and Aikido.
Again, thank you very much for your advice.
Join date: Jun 2008
Location: Alabama, USA
Posts: 1049
For warm ups, I'll usually start well below 50% for a couple sets of 5-10 (depending on the muscle group). Then I do three sets of 1-3, working up toward my first working set. Then I'll do my ramped working sets.
EX: squats
135x10 smooth, controlled reps (all other reps are as explosive as possible)
135x10
185x2
225x2
275x2
305x5 first working set
325x5
345x5
or for bench:
95x5 smooth (all other reps are as explosive as possible)
95x5
125x1
155x1
185x1
200x5 first working set
210x5
220x5
As Bonez posted, the first two sets are just to get blood to the area. I use the in-between sets simply because I've found that they improve my performance on my work sets. According to Thibs, they ramp up your CNS to get ready for bigger weights. I tried it, it worked, I kept using it.
At what point would you stop recommending straight sets to someone? When they stop progressing and are then forced to learn a whole new way of lifting that could have be implemented from the very beginning?
I just want to point out that almost every trainee adapts their program as they mature as a lifter. Whether it be exercise selection, rep scheme, etc. everyone changes something at some point. Surely you're not doing the same thing you've been doing since day one?
The only thing that has changed is that I started working my legs 6 months or so after my upper body. Also my exercise repetoire has changed and still does. Volume and rep schemes change twice per year in a rotation.
As far as ramping goes I've been doing the exact same thing from day one. I started lifting with 2 other guys a few years ago and it was never even discussed whether or not to add more weight each set. Everyone just did it. Ramping is not some advanced technique that should only be implemented after years of successful lifting. But that's just me.
dragonre wrote:
Thank you very much for a response, your advise has been useful so far.
When you guys are talking about straight sets, you mean opposed to doing supersets? Before I researched any of this stuff, I tended to naturally gravitate towards doing supersets or trisets, though perhaps not correctly. My normal lifting was assisted pullups, then machine bicep curls, then incline abs and back to the beginning.
After reading about how it's important to wait 2 minutes between lifting, I've stopped doing that. After reading some more, it seems it's not a horrible idea, but to help muscle confusion I need to mix it up. Does this sound appropriate?
Also, back to what I was trying to ask about max rep, I've read it's important to know what it is, to help you gauge your weight selection. I mean if I'm going for doing 8 reps I can sort of feel what weight I'm going to be able to handle that at.
Should testing my RM in each exercise be done like once a month? When I test should I wait a minute or two before trying to lift an increased weight?
Also, my MA I did in fact mean MA. I do Japanese JJ and Aikido.
Again, thank you very much for your advice.
I don't see a need to ever test your max strength unless you are training for a powerlifting competition.
Supersets have their place in fatloss programs. They can also be used by advanced lifters looking to add new stimulus. If you enjoy doing them do them periodically. Maybe once every 6 weeks, if that often.
Muscle confusion is a term made up to sell DVDs. Your muscles dont need to be confused to grow. They need a progressive overload, that's it. Just lift more weight that you did the session prior. That can come from increased poundage or from increased reps.
Go to the bodybuilding forum and read the thread at the top of the page "the best of tnation". Apply the principles to suit your martial arts needs.
Join date: Feb 2004
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Posts: 524
BONEZ217 wrote:
The only thing that has changed is that I started working my legs 6 months or so after my upper body. Also my exercise repetoire has changed and still does. Volume and rep schemes change twice per year in a rotation.
As far as ramping goes I've been doing the exact same thing from day one. I started lifting with 2 other guys a few years ago and it was never even discussed whether or not to add more weight each set. Everyone just did it. Ramping is not some advanced technique that should only be implemented after years of successful lifting. But that's just me.
I'm not debating whether or not to use ramped sets. Plenty of people have gotten big and strong off both. The Smolov squat routine is straight sets. Sheiko is a mix. I think anyone who declares outright that one method is superior is close-minded.
You suggest being forced to learn something new is a bad thing. The strongest people I know are all always trying something new. Bands, chains, changing rep schemes, etc. Maybe there's a correlation?
Both of those are 'powerlifting' or strength-based programs, right?
Personally, I don't give a shit how strong I get. Strength is a side effect of effective training, in my opinion. I strive to get stronger because it allows me to grow more.
I've never even remotely suggested that learning new things is bad. That is a complete stretch.
Bands, chains, and rep schemes are exclusive to ramping and straight sets. You can use chains and ramp or you can use chains and do straight sets. They have nothing to do with each other. I believe that ramping weight is a principle; not a tool to be used to break plateaus.
If you want to make the claim that a strength based program is best for martial arts success I can't disagree. I am in no way prepared to debate that.
Should I start a new thread to ask your opinion of my workout or just ask here? I'm concerned that it's not built intelligently enough. Seeing how I don't know what I'm doing, that could be a fair assumption.
Part of me thinks anything I do is going to be better than nothing, but why not work out intelligently?
Join date: Nov 2006
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 3515
There seems to be some misunderstanding, so I'm going to go point-by-point and try to explain my perspective.
BONEZ217 wrote:
So you think 10 reps at 80% is not going to fatigue the muscle? 10 reps.
No, I don't think it's going to fatigue the muscle. Lets assume the newbie's working weight is 75% of his 1RM. 80% of that is about 55%. I do not think a set of 10 at 55% is going to fatigue the muscle. Especially not for someone posting in the beginner forum.
I can see using straight sets for a muscle group that isn't that big and strong on a beginner. For example bicep curls. I would not recommend a beginner take 5lb dumbells and ramp up to the 20's. In this case if the person can do db curls with 20lbs for 12 reps I'd recommend 1 set of 15 lbs and 2-3 sets of 20lbs. But for legs this wouldnt make sense at all. Your example of a chest warm up + work sets is much closer to ramped work sets done after the pecs and shoulders are fully warm.
...My example of a chest warm-up?
With leg training you have the opportunity to start relatively light and still benefit the muscles. If a beginner back squats 200lbs for reps I'd recommend warming up with bodyweight squats and then the bar for a couple of reps (maybe 5 for a few sets). If the person wants to do 4 sets and wants to finish with 200lbs for 10 this is how I'd do it. 135lbs for 10, 160-170 for 8, 190 for 8 and finish with 200 for 10. Jumping into 200lbs x 10 for 4 sets will be much less productive and will take much longer to progress as opposed to ramped sets.
I also don't understand how being simple justifies the use of a method. It's not like increasing the weight on each set requires advanced mathematics. Just start light and add more weight. Explain how straight sets offer an 'exposure and adaptation to a stimulus' but ramped sets do not. Why are you implying that ramped sets prevent progression?
First, I never implied ramped sets prevent progression. That probably came from the same place as my chest-workout example.
Second, while you might not understand how being simple justifies the use of a method, we can probably agree that being overly complex eliminates the usefulness of one. I know you don't see 'ramping' as a complex method, but I want to point out there are a number of threads in the T-Cell and BB Training forum trying to explain it. Questions like 'how many reps should be in my top ramped thread?' 'What do I do if I'm not feeling the muscle work in my final couple of sets?' 'Can I do reverse ramping?' pop up with regularity. Straight sets are an easier concept to grasp.
Especially if the point you're making has to do with defining a warm-up, and has nothing to do with delivering advice with regards to programming at all.
Lastly, straight-sets work wonders for getting people big and strong. Hence the popularity of Rippetoes.
At what point would you stop recommending straight sets to someone? When they stop progressing and are then forced to learn a whole new way of lifting that could have be implemented from the very beginning?
Usually, I don't have to stop recommending straight-sets to people, they stop on their own. Usually, they progress from something squat-heavy like Rippetoes into the various other beginner programs, have gotten big and strong, and decide to do something more specific to whatever interests them, whether that be utilizing ME and DE stuff in a powerlifting template, Sheiko, Abijaev's spirit-crushing high-volume/high-intensity-constantly OLY-routines, or even a body-part split.
The point is, usually they figure it out for themselves because they get bored. At least, that's been my experience.
Hopefully that cleared some stuff up. I realize this thread is now way off-topic, and I apologize for that, but I felt it important to clear up where I was coming from, and how there's room for both sets of answers.
Otep wrote:
There seems to be some misunderstanding, so I'm going to go point-by-point and try to explain my perspective.
BONEZ217 wrote:
So you think 10 reps at 80% is not going to fatigue the muscle? 10 reps.
No, I don't think it's going to fatigue the muscle. Lets assume the newbie's working weight is 75% of his 1RM. 80% of that is about 55%. I do not think a set of 10 at 55% is going to fatigue the muscle. Especially not for someone posting in the beginner forum.
I can see using straight sets for a muscle group that isn't that big and strong on a beginner. For example bicep curls. I would not recommend a beginner take 5lb dumbells and ramp up to the 20's. In this case if the person can do db curls with 20lbs for 12 reps I'd recommend 1 set of 15 lbs and 2-3 sets of 20lbs. But for legs this wouldnt make sense at all. Your example of a chest warm up + work sets is much closer to ramped work sets done after the pecs and shoulders are fully warm.
...My example of a chest warm-up?
With leg training you have the opportunity to start relatively light and still benefit the muscles. If a beginner back squats 200lbs for reps I'd recommend warming up with bodyweight squats and then the bar for a couple of reps (maybe 5 for a few sets). If the person wants to do 4 sets and wants to finish with 200lbs for 10 this is how I'd do it. 135lbs for 10, 160-170 for 8, 190 for 8 and finish with 200 for 10. Jumping into 200lbs x 10 for 4 sets will be much less productive and will take much longer to progress as opposed to ramped sets.
I also don't understand how being simple justifies the use of a method. It's not like increasing the weight on each set requires advanced mathematics. Just start light and add more weight. Explain how straight sets offer an 'exposure and adaptation to a stimulus' but ramped sets do not. Why are you implying that ramped sets prevent progression?
First, I never implied ramped sets prevent progression. That probably came from the same place as my chest-workout example.
Second, while you might not understand how being simple justifies the use of a method, we can probably agree that being overly complex eliminates the usefulness of one. I know you don't see 'ramping' as a complex method, but I want to point out there are a number of threads in the T-Cell and BB Training forum trying to explain it. Questions like 'how many reps should be in my top ramped thread?' 'What do I do if I'm not feeling the muscle work in my final couple of sets?' 'Can I do reverse ramping?' pop up with regularity. Straight sets are an easier concept to grasp.
Especially if the point you're making has to do with defining a warm-up, and has nothing to do with delivering advice with regards to programming at all.
Lastly, straight-sets work wonders for getting people big and strong. Hence the popularity of Rippetoes.
At what point would you stop recommending straight sets to someone? When they stop progressing and are then forced to learn a whole new way of lifting that could have be implemented from the very beginning?
Usually, I don't have to stop recommending straight-sets to people, they stop on their own. Usually, they progress from something squat-heavy like Rippetoes into the various other beginner programs, have gotten big and strong, and decide to do something more specific to whatever interests them, whether that be utilizing ME and DE stuff in a powerlifting template, Sheiko, Abijaev's spirit-crushing high-volume/high-intensity-constantly OLY-routines, or even a body-part split.
The point is, usually they figure it out for themselves because they get bored. At least, that's been my experience.
Hopefully that cleared some stuff up. I realize this thread is now way off-topic, and I apologize for that, but I felt it important to clear up where I was coming from, and how there's room for both sets of answers.
Gotcha.
Since I've never done one of the strength programs mentioned that use straight sets I'll accept that they work for building powerfull lifts.
dragonre wrote:
Hello, I've lifted before but never really knew what I was doing. I'm looking to improve my strength and just a little bit of bulk.
My questions are:
Warm up sets - do I do warm up sets for everything before doing any normal sets, or do I do a warm up set then the exercise move on to next exercise and do a warm up set then the exercise?
To confirm a warm up set should be around 50% of my max?
I never knew to do warm up sets before, so it's new it me.
Also, rep max. How often should I check my rep max and when testing how long do I wait between testing weight increments?
I plan on doing a 3 day split, day 1: backs and biceps day 2: legs, and day 3: chest and triceps. Any problems with this?
Also I do MA 5 days a week.
Thanks for the input.
I know you are on a 3 day split and doing a lot of MMA, but you seem to have skipped your shoulders. is there a reason why you arent adding shoulders to your program?
and maybe its just me, but i dont think there is such a thing as warming up too light. sure 50 %is a good warm up, but i personally start far below that
for example, when benching i will do a set or two with just the bar. to get a little blood in my muscles, but more to get my set up right and to try to solidify exactly how i want the bar to move once im going heavy. i feel that warming up light and getting my motion right helps me solidify my form for when im into my real reps. with the bar i might do 10's or so but most of my warm ups are 5's or 3's.
Ok, so I'll just mention what I'm doing and you guys can tell me how I should change it.
Monday - Squats, assisted pull ups, bicep barbell curl, bicep dumbell curl
Tuesday - Squats, deadlifts (bent leg), dumbell lunges, leg extensions
Wednesday - bench press, flat dumbell flys, rope pulldowns, assisted dips
I was thinking of adding good mornings in there somewhere.
I'm able to move a weigh lifting day to thur/fri if you think it necessary.
MA is Monday/Wed/Fri night, Sat morning. Though next semester I'll be adding an hour of karate tues/thur.
I'm squatting and bench pressing on a smith machine, I know this isn't as good, it's just all I've got at the work gym I use during lunch.
If something is stupid, tell me. I don't know what I'm doing and I'll not make pretenses otherwise.
Also, I think I'd like to have something for pushing up, the opposite of pulls ups. I have no idea what the name for that would be. I tried doing something like that with a smith machine, but it felt wrong.
What's your resoning for squatting on consecutive days?
I wouldn't even recommend squatting and deadlifting on consecutive days, to be honest.
Move your tuesday work to monday. Call that a 'legs' day. I don't know what you mean by 'bent leg' deadlifts. Is that conventional deadlifts? Or Romanian deadlift. I'd recommend romanian deadlifts after you do lunges. Replace leg extensions with leg curls. Train your calves also.
Do your chest and tricep workout on tuesday.
That leaves you 1 other day to cover back biceps and delts. I think you should do anterior delt work on tuesday. Front raises with cables or dumbells can work.
Your routine was devoid of any back work. Pullups and deadlifts aren't enough.
On Wednesday you can do something like this.
Conventional deadlift
Pullups
BB rows
DB curls
How heavy do the dumbells go? Are you strong enough to use the heaviest ones for 5 sets of 12? If not I'd suggest bench pressing with dumbells instead of a smith machine.
My reason was I am quite enjoying squats and was being stupid and ignoring what I've read and doing it two days in a row. Monday I lifted more weight and it was on smith, tuesday ... it was a bad idea but there isn't a rack for squats so I just pulled a bench bar and loaded it light and squatted free. It was a stupid idea as obviously it's hard to handle moving weight over my head to set the bar back down.
Is this a good demonstration of romanian deadlifts?
Looking at this and everything else I can find, I don't know what the hell I was doing on deadlifts. Mine had a lot of knee bending and I don't see anyone doing that.
Is there a site you recommend or a link here that explains step by step to do exercises? I've been using shapefit.com and they seem a little hit or miss.
Ok, so monday - lunges, romanian deadlift, leg curls (hopefully they have a machine for that), then would dumbbell calf raises work?
Tuesday - the chest/tricep workout I'm doing now is ok? There is indeed a bench, so I've been benching on that. Only have to rely on smith for squats. Would you still recommend doing DB over bench? The DB go up to 80, no way I can handle that right now.
Wednesday - do normal deadlifts (which I don't know what the difference is), bb rows and db curls. So this is 3 back total one upper one mid one lower, and one bicep
Do you do your DB raises and curls simultaneously or do you alternate?
So this has me no squatting at all? Is this just because the Smith machine sucks?
You should still squat. Squatting in a smith is definitely better than not squatting at all. Just make sure you're doing them correctly. Youtube videos will help.
Romanian deadlift is for hamstrings and glutes primarily. Conventional deadlift hits the whole leg more and the back. Use the site search to search articles about the various deadlift variations. A google search will also work.
Use the dumbells for now while bench pressing. When you can use the heaviest ones for multiple sets at 10-12 reps then start using the barbell. Or rotate between the two every few months.
I edited my previous post but apparently got lost.
You should also add some delt work if you can. If you think your anterior delts get enough work on the day you bench press than do side lateral raises instead of front raises to hit the medial delts.
You can do face pulls on your back day to the posterior delts if you feel barbell rows aren't enough.
dragonre wrote:
My post has slowly drifted to the bottom, should I make a new thread about my last post, or would anyone care to give me feedback?
Thanks.
I have MA background. Actually that is why I started lifting, and I trained obsessively for over 5 years only to become a better Fighter.
I can help you with Weight Training as it applies to MA.
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