| Wendler 5/3/1 Program - pt 2. |
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TheDudeAbides
Level 0
Join date: Jul 2007
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 2818
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Hanley wrote:
DCR wrote:
Hanley wrote:
DF85 wrote:
5/3/1 is a life style.
It is??
It has changed my life and lifting forever. I dont know if its a lifestyle, but such a simple program has had a major impact
It's changed your life??? Man I must be doing something wrong :)
I don't know if it's changed my life ... I don't get that deep into the psychology of training. It definitely goes down as my new favorite program to pimp though! |
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Jim Wendler
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Join date: Feb 2004
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"Hello Jim,
Due to Shoulder issues I will be performing your program without the Military Press and Back Squat. I know Front Squats are a fine substitute, but what do you think...BB Row or Pull-up as substitute for the Military? The only problem I can see - besides truly not following the program - is that BBB would be quite challenging with the Pull-ups. I will also use the three day template as I feel the grip/possible low back and ham fatigue from the pull-ups or rows would take away from the other lower-body lifts.
Thank you for your time,
Joe"
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Joe - You can do either the Rows or the Chins. If you want to do the 5x10 with the chins (but can't do it) just one of the following:
1. Do 5 sets of X
2. Do 50 total reps (anyway possible)
3. Do some other kind of lat exercise for 5 sets of 10 reps
No low back/grip/ham fatigue from chins. From rows? Yes.
Jason Pegg does rows.
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Jim Wendler
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Join date: Feb 2004
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Posts: 289
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"Jim,
I am wondering if and how this new revolutionary device will be included in your much anticipated, upcoming (hopefully) YOKE manual?
www.buyneckslimmer.com
Also how would this work with 5/3/1 and the progression springs? "
--------------------------------------------
This is an abomination. Heathens! |
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Jim Wendler
Level 0
Join date: Feb 2004
Location:
Posts: 289
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TheDudeAbides wrote:
Hanley wrote:
DCR wrote:
Hanley wrote:
DF85 wrote:
5/3/1 is a life style.
It is??
It has changed my life and lifting forever. I dont know if its a lifestyle, but such a simple program has had a major impact
It's changed your life??? Man I must be doing something wrong :)
I don't know if it's changed my life ... I don't get that deep into the psychology of training. It definitely goes down as my new favorite program to pimp though!
This is interesting. My whole life has been about removing excess and being simple. While it is not necessarily a lifestyle, the program has roots in my own philosophy of life.
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Jim Wendler
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Join date: Feb 2004
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Posts: 289
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"Just a quick note on my 5/3/1 progress. I started at the end of last August and am on my 11th cycle right now. Every year my buddy runs a fun little push/pull competition at his gym.
Last August: Deadlift 545 (missed 555 at knee), bench press 315
Today: Deadlift 585 (missed 600 above knee), bench press 340 (missed 365 off chest)
It's working! My highest deadlift in training was 525. I try for (but don't always make) a reps PR every month and they add up over the long haul. I also didn't deload/taper for this meet as I wrapped up my 3x3 week on Friday. Just took it as a fun testing day and it payed off with 2 meet PR's.
-Darren"
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This is amazing. Great progress. |
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TheDudeAbides
Level 0
Join date: Jul 2007
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 2818
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Jim Wendler wrote:
TheDudeAbides wrote:
Hanley wrote:
DCR wrote:
Hanley wrote:
DF85 wrote:
5/3/1 is a life style.
It is??
It has changed my life and lifting forever. I dont know if its a lifestyle, but such a simple program has had a major impact
It's changed your life??? Man I must be doing something wrong :)
I don't know if it's changed my life ... I don't get that deep into the psychology of training. It definitely goes down as my new favorite program to pimp though!
This is interesting. My whole life has been about removing excess and being simple. While it is not necessarily a lifestyle, the program has roots in my own philosophy of life.
Ok that makes sense. Maybe I was talking from my arse ... Maybe it has changed my life and I didn't realize it - I've gotten much stronger, lost fat, became [relatively] faster, and spend less time at the gym.
I'm just finishing my 11th cycle. I've never had this much fun, with such long term results. The longest program I've done was Starting Strength for about 9 weeks.
I love to lift, and lift to live another day. |
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masonator
Level 4
Join date: Oct 2007
Location: Alabama, USA
Posts: 939
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Making great progress with 5/3/1. I think the next book should come with a required lifting soundtrack of Abominable Iron Sloth, Unearthly Trance, Black Cobra, Soilent Green, and Sepultura. All together, I'd say they're good for at least 15lbs of carryover. |
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dez6485
Level 4
Join date: Sep 2005
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 1627
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i love 5/3/1.
i woke up this morning still sore from squatting on Saturday. glutes, hams, and sides/obliques from doing db side bends (id never done them and apparently went too heavy). nothing was extremely sore, but just sore enough that i was questioning whether doing Deadlifts today would work.
halfway through my workday today i bent down to an imaginary bar and did an imaginary deadlift. i could feel the soreness, im fucked i thought.
at some point i decided fuck it, its 3 x 3 day, ill just go in get the prescribed reps and call it a day, dont push the last set.
got into my warm up sets, things just started to feel right, hit my last set for 10. oh yes. good workout. |
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heavythrower
Level 3
Join date: Nov 2002
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since i have only one good elbow, i am also eliminating the pressing as far as 5/3/1 goes. my upper body pushing is done for reps and hypertrophy only.
i am doing the powerclean, deadlift, and box squat. to break a conventional pull pr(previous is 620) next month.
second cycle started this week after a deload of sorts.
btw, Jim, i solved my "PROWLER HOWL" problem. bought a 1 inch thick kitchen cutting board(plastic type) and cut it to fit the prowler skids. bolted them to the skids and recessed the screws about 1/4 inch. no screeching, and a smoother ride.
hugs,
michael |
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JPeggEFS
Level 1
Join date: May 2009
Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 91
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Did I make it in on the first page? I know I made it in Wendler!
Jason |
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mldj
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Join date: Oct 2007
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Being the stupid over-analyzer that I am, I entered my third week reps/weight in a 1RM Calculator, and, as expected got weights around my actual 1RM. After I read the old thread (well, not all of it) again, and reminded myself about the philosophy of the program, I realized how stupid it was, and now I'm going back to training.
Happily beginning the second cycle.
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Jim Wendler
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Join date: Feb 2004
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masonator wrote:
Making great progress with 5/3/1. I think the next book should come with a required lifting soundtrack of Abominable Iron Sloth, Unearthly Trance, Black Cobra, Soilent Green, and Sepultura. All together, I'd say they're good for at least 15lbs of carryover.
You are wise. |
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Jim Wendler
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JPeggEFS wrote:
Did I make it in on the first page? I know I made it in Wendler!
Jason
Looks like you jumped out of the closet at just the right time!
We are having a huge BBQ at the next UGSS in July. I expect you to drink more than you eat.
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mjnewland
Level 3
Join date: Jul 2008
Location: Utah, USA
Posts: 1428
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Jim Wendler wrote:
Looks like you jumped out of the closet at just the right time!
We are having a huge BBQ at the next UGSS in July. I expect you to drink more than you eat.
Is that even possible? |
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NewWorldMan
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Join date: Apr 2009
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Jim,
After reading much online, I bought the e-book. I am enjoying the format/progression. I've been lifting on/off since I was 14 (am 38 now). Boredom had often led me to switching programs frequently and not making much linear progress over time.
This program seems to be just what I need for long term progress. I just started my second full cycle yesterday and I really feel that I can ride this program out for the long haul on the big lifts. (I need to do something - my 14 1/2 year old son has been lifting for about 8 months and is already dead lifting 335 for reps/ squatting 265x5/bench 175x4 (long arms like dad)).
Thanks for e-book and checking in on these forums!
/DL = 340x6: S = 305x6: Bench = 220x6: Press = 145x5 (blah)
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Scottish 190
Level 4
Join date: Jun 2004
Location: Nebraska, USA
Posts: 271
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mjnewland wrote:
Jim Wendler wrote:
Looks like you jumped out of the closet at just the right time!
We are having a huge BBQ at the next UGSS in July. I expect you to drink more than you eat.
Is that even possible?
Oh yes, trust me I've seen done. Granted the effects are what I would call...bulimic.
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DCR
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Join date: May 2003
Location:
Posts: 62
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TheDudeAbides wrote:
Jim Wendler wrote:
TheDudeAbides wrote:
Hanley wrote:
DCR wrote:
Hanley wrote:
DF85 wrote:
5/3/1 is a life style.
It is??
It has changed my life and lifting forever. I dont know if its a lifestyle, but such a simple program has had a major impact
It's changed your life??? Man I must be doing something wrong :)
I don't know if it's changed my life ... I don't get that deep into the psychology of training. It definitely goes down as my new favorite program to pimp though!
This is interesting. My whole life has been about removing excess and being simple. While it is not necessarily a lifestyle, the program has roots in my own philosophy of life.
Ok that makes sense. Maybe I was talking from my arse ... Maybe it has changed my life and I didn't realize it - I've gotten much stronger, lost fat, became [relatively] faster, and spend less time at the gym.
I'm just finishing my 11th cycle. I've never had this much fun, with such long term results. The longest program I've done was Starting Strength for about 9 weeks.
I love to lift, and lift to live another day.
Thats what I was talking about. Training is fun again. I hit PBs constantly, I am fitter (it doesnt suck to be alive and walk!), I am able to be more than just a "powerlifter" I have been able to add in highland games and strongman work.
I look forward to training again. And since training is such a large part of my life...life is great |
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Avocado
Level 4
Join date: Apr 2006
Location: Alberta, CAN
Posts: 2564
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Slowly making my way through the old thread and going to get the manual[s] when I finish moving [hate having to get my address rerouted].
Have a question i have been mulling over. My primary concern is my OL lifts, snatch and C+J. I've been looking at ways to transpose the simple uniqueness of 5/3/1 type methodology into my OL template.
Previous to this I've been using pretty typical russo-bulgarian intensity variation, including or simulating competition dates.
Now i was wondering if anyone else has tried, thought about or has an interesting observation/opinion on this issue.
I was thinking that I would include snatches and C+J as their own strain of variation and use the 5/3/1 template on the other core lifts, such as Squats, pulls, press' and assistance etc. Alternatively i could use similar weekly progressions on the Snatch and CJ but take the reps down to where you would usually train the classic/dynamic lifts. One example might be 3/2/1/deload. I was thinking that maybe 2/2/1 would be better for the CJ since 3 reps of the full lift is a dick-buster. then again who says i cant use that conditioning [might prevent the dizzies on those ME attempts post clean].
Thanks for any help brainstorming and hooking me up with the science. Also thanks to everyone for contributing to one of the redeeming parts of T-Nation that keeps these forums from true degeneration. It's all about the community.
In other news: Just so someone who will think it knows, Im not going to alter the program and call it 5/3/1 and say it doesnt work etc. etc. I'm just thinking conceptually as a coach and athlete and looking to the experience of the community and it's veterans. I liked the concept and from all ive read Jim Wendler is far from a strict programming nazi that insists down to the pound. Far from it. So i figured it would be a good concept to play around with and see how it goes with the classics. Even so, I'm perfectly ok with doing 5/3/1 + Sn and CJ in front regular style.
have fun,
-chris |
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ninearms
Level 0
Join date: Sep 2006
Location:
Posts: 1183
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Avocado wrote:
Slowly making my way through the old thread and going to get the manual[s] when I finish moving [hate having to get my address rerouted].
Have a question i have been mulling over. My primary concern is my OL lifts, snatch and C+J. I've been looking at ways to transpose the simple uniqueness of 5/3/1 type methodology into my OL template.
Previous to this I've been using pretty typical russo-bulgarian intensity variation, including or simulating competition dates.
Now i was wondering if anyone else has tried, thought about or has an interesting observation/opinion on this issue.
I was thinking that I would include snatches and C+J as their own strain of variation and use the 5/3/1 template on the other core lifts, such as Squats, pulls, press' and assistance etc. Alternatively i could use similar weekly progressions on the Snatch and CJ but take the reps down to where you would usually train the classic/dynamic lifts. One example might be 3/2/1/deload. I was thinking that maybe 2/2/1 would be better for the CJ since 3 reps of the full lift is a dick-buster. then again who says i cant use that conditioning [might prevent the dizzies on those ME attempts post clean].
Thanks for any help brainstorming and hooking me up with the science. Also thanks to everyone for contributing to one of the redeeming parts of T-Nation that keeps these forums from true degeneration. It's all about the community.
In other news: Just so someone who will think it knows, Im not going to alter the program and call it 5/3/1 and say it doesnt work etc. etc. I'm just thinking conceptually as a coach and athlete and looking to the experience of the community and it's veterans. I liked the concept and from all ive read Jim Wendler is far from a strict programming nazi that insists down to the pound. Far from it. So i figured it would be a good concept to play around with and see how it goes with the classics. Even so, I'm perfectly ok with doing 5/3/1 + Sn and CJ in front regular style.
have fun,
-chris
Funny you should ask the question Chris - I'm actually running 5/3/1 alongside my OL stuff at the moment (fed up of my screwy shoulder messing up my overhead strength so decided to actually train my pressing for the first time in years and 5/3/1 looked like a straightforward way to approach it), although I'm not benching as that's what messed my shoulder up in the first place. So I'm doing my OL stuff plus the front squat, overhead squat subbed for bench, strict press and clean deads, and the Boring But Big assistance. I have a silly strength:lifts ratio, so the reduced squatting frequency and lack of back squats actually suits me well at the moment. Plus I could do with the getting some reps in again.
As far a how to programme the OL stuff alongside it, I'm basically doing an 8 week cycle of 80/85/90/75/85/90/95+/75. I think it's important to hit some heavy lifts in the OL stuff more regularly than the strength stuff to avoid getting to that point where you chicken out of 90% lifts because you've been spending too much time at 80-85%. I'm training 4 times a week, alternating between snatch and C&J for the first 3 days and then either snatch or clean pulls on the 4th depepnding on whether I snatched or cleaned on the 3rd. I figured I'm doing clean deads that day anyway so I may as well take advantage of that and use the pulls to warmup for it, plus it gives me the chance to have a lower impact OL day. I cut the last clean deads set short when I can't hold position, rather than when the weight won't budge.
3/2/1/deload is pretty much how I have the OL stuff too, though as you say triples in the C&J is for maniacs - one way to get round that is to do that week as 3+1 lifts. Works for me because my jerk is better than my clean, but if your clean is better than your jerk then 1+3 may work (although way tougher). For the 3rd session of the week I might power snatch rather than full snatch, or I might just clean and drop the jerks entirely. Obviously you can't rep out your C&J like you can your squat, so I'm aiming on average for around 12 total reps at the top weight for the day, whether that be 4x3r, 6x2r, or 12x1r, although I do wave the volume over the course of 4 weeks.
I'm only on my 2nd cycle at the moment, but it's going well and I'm enjoying the change of stimulus. I find I can push the volume on the OL stuff more without feeling sluggish next session, and body comp is starting to improve even though I'm still the same bodyweight (the no man's land that is 81-82kg). I'm resting less between lifts, and my shoulder feels better than it has done in a long time too.
So, I'd say it's definitely worth a shot. I think we do sometimes forget that there are other things in life than front squatting heavy singles 3 times a week. |
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Avocado
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Join date: Apr 2006
Location: Alberta, CAN
Posts: 2564
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ninearms wrote:
Avocado wrote:
Slowly making my way through the old thread and going to get the manual[s] when I finish moving [hate having to get my address rerouted].
Have a question i have been mulling over. My primary concern is my OL lifts, snatch and C+J. I've been looking at ways to transpose the simple uniqueness of 5/3/1 type methodology into my OL template.
Previous to this I've been using pretty typical russo-bulgarian intensity variation, including or simulating competition dates.
Now i was wondering if anyone else has tried, thought about or has an interesting observation/opinion on this issue.
I was thinking that I would include snatches and C+J as their own strain of variation and use the 5/3/1 template on the other core lifts, such as Squats, pulls, press' and assistance etc. Alternatively i could use similar weekly progressions on the Snatch and CJ but take the reps down to where you would usually train the classic/dynamic lifts. One example might be 3/2/1/deload. I was thinking that maybe 2/2/1 would be better for the CJ since 3 reps of the full lift is a dick-buster. then again who says i cant use that conditioning [might prevent the dizzies on those ME attempts post clean].
Thanks for any help brainstorming and hooking me up with the science. Also thanks to everyone for contributing to one of the redeeming parts of T-Nation that keeps these forums from true degeneration. It's all about the community.
In other news: Just so someone who will think it knows, Im not going to alter the program and call it 5/3/1 and say it doesnt work etc. etc. I'm just thinking conceptually as a coach and athlete and looking to the experience of the community and it's veterans. I liked the concept and from all ive read Jim Wendler is far from a strict programming nazi that insists down to the pound. Far from it. So i figured it would be a good concept to play around with and see how it goes with the classics. Even so, I'm perfectly ok with doing 5/3/1 + Sn and CJ in front regular style.
have fun,
-chris
Funny you should ask the question Chris - I'm actually running 5/3/1 alongside my OL stuff at the moment (fed up of my screwy shoulder messing up my overhead strength so decided to actually train my pressing for the first time in years and 5/3/1 looked like a straightforward way to approach it), although I'm not benching as that's what messed my shoulder up in the first place. So I'm doing my OL stuff plus the front squat, overhead squat subbed for bench, strict press and clean deads, and the Boring But Big assistance. I have a silly strength:lifts ratio, so the reduced squatting frequency and lack of back squats actually suits me well at the moment. Plus I could do with the getting some reps in again.
As far a how to programme the OL stuff alongside it, I'm basically doing an 8 week cycle of 80/85/90/75/85/90/95+/75. I think it's important to hit some heavy lifts in the OL stuff more regularly than the strength stuff to avoid getting to that point where you chicken out of 90% lifts because you've been spending too much time at 80-85%. I'm training 4 times a week, alternating between snatch and C&J for the first 3 days and then either snatch or clean pulls on the 4th depepnding on whether I snatched or cleaned on the 3rd. I figured I'm doing clean deads that day anyway so I may as well take advantage of that and use the pulls to warmup for it, plus it gives me the chance to have a lower impact OL day. I cut the last clean deads set short when I can't hold position, rather than when the weight won't budge.
3/2/1/deload is pretty much how I have the OL stuff too, though as you say triples in the C&J is for maniacs - one way to get round that is to do that week as 3+1 lifts. Works for me because my jerk is better than my clean, but if your clean is better than your jerk then 1+3 may work (although way tougher). For the 3rd session of the week I might power snatch rather than full snatch, or I might just clean and drop the jerks entirely. Obviously you can't rep out your C&J like you can your squat, so I'm aiming on average for around 12 total reps at the top weight for the day, whether that be 4x3r, 6x2r, or 12x1r, although I do wave the volume over the course of 4 weeks.
I'm only on my 2nd cycle at the moment, but it's going well and I'm enjoying the change of stimulus. I find I can push the volume on the OL stuff more without feeling sluggish next session, and body comp is starting to improve even though I'm still the same bodyweight (the no man's land that is 81-82kg). I'm resting less between lifts, and my shoulder feels better than it has done in a long time too.
So, I'd say it's definitely worth a shot. I think we do sometimes forget that there are other things in life than front squatting heavy singles 3 times a week.
Nice. Another thing that has presented itself since my post was that I could still do a 3/2/1 version on CJ but on the 3 day I would do cleans and jerks from the boxes/rack separately for 3 reps each. And or since i train on 4 days/week I could have a jerk and clean day. that might piss me off though.
Ill let you know the sound of it once i get a preliminary template put together. gotta find my wallet first though. no idea where i put that shit.
-chris |
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m1sf1t
Level 4
Join date: Jun 2005
Location: California, USA
Posts: 310
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Avocado wrote:
Slowly making my way through the old thread and going to get the manual[s] when I finish moving [hate having to get my address rerouted].
Have a question i have been mulling over. My primary concern is my OL lifts, snatch and C+J. I've been looking at ways to transpose the simple uniqueness of 5/3/1 type methodology into my OL template.
Previous to this I've been using pretty typical russo-bulgarian intensity variation, including or simulating competition dates.
Now i was wondering if anyone else has tried, thought about or has an interesting observation/opinion on this issue.
I was thinking that I would include snatches and C+J as their own strain of variation and use the 5/3/1 template on the other core lifts, such as Squats, pulls, press' and assistance etc. Alternatively i could use similar weekly progressions on the Snatch and CJ but take the reps down to where you would usually train the classic/dynamic lifts. One example might be 3/2/1/deload. I was thinking that maybe 2/2/1 would be better for the CJ since 3 reps of the full lift is a dick-buster. then again who says i cant use that conditioning [might prevent the dizzies on those ME attempts post clean].
Thanks for any help brainstorming and hooking me up with the science. Also thanks to everyone for contributing to one of the redeeming parts of T-Nation that keeps these forums from true degeneration. It's all about the community.
In other news: Just so someone who will think it knows, Im not going to alter the program and call it 5/3/1 and say it doesnt work etc. etc. I'm just thinking conceptually as a coach and athlete and looking to the experience of the community and it's veterans. I liked the concept and from all ive read Jim Wendler is far from a strict programming nazi that insists down to the pound. Far from it. So i figured it would be a good concept to play around with and see how it goes with the classics. Even so, I'm perfectly ok with doing 5/3/1 + Sn and CJ in front regular style.
have fun,
-chris
I do 5/3/1 power cleans and snatches on my deadlift/squat days respectively. I don't compete or was ever formally trained though, I just like to challenge myself with them and so far I haven't noticed any drawbacks with my other main lifts and I've been increasing the weights on all of them.
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