Join date: Nov 2002
Location: Ontario, CAN
Posts: 863
I was going through a closet the other day and found my old log book from Karate. A sensei from the US put on a semanar and I wrote this down. Someone asked him about street fighting and this was his responce.
1. Close distance.
2. React in one second.
3. Instant pain.
4. Use technique that works on everyone.
5. Morally justified.
6. Legally safe.
This Sensei's speciality was pressure point combat for lack of a better term. The places that this guy could inflict pain was amazing. I felt bad for the two guys that were his assistants.
I remember he was demonstrating a technique where you applied pressure on a persons forearm just above the wrist. For some reason, if I remember correctly, the bigger the person is the easier it is to make this work and the skinnier you were the harder it was. He said whenever he did a seminar he would always pick out the biggest dude to get the most ohhhs and ahhhs lol.
I was intrested to see what you people thought about his advice. I apologize if this has been covered before.
I don't mean to sound like a close minded asshole, but I think pressure point pain compliance has little actual merit in a live/dynamic situation. it hurts, but usually the demonstrater is doing it with your 100% compliance and in a live situation, if you grabbed my arm and dug into a pressure point, I'm going to hit you with my free hand in the face while pulling my arm away.
Join date: Jun 2006
Location: Oklahoma, USA
Posts: 195
If OP's avatar is real, it is the legendary 5x5 Fingers of Death, which would ensure the pressure point defense would lead to instant death through sensory overload.
Having only one world title, I would leave this alone FirestormWarrior ;7)
treco wrote:
If OP's avatar is real, it is the legendary 5x5 Fingers of Death, which would ensure the pressure point defense would lead to instant death through sensory overload.
Having only one world title, I would leave this alone FirestormWarrior ;7)
Join date: Feb 2005
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 11048
bond james bond wrote:
I was going through a closet the other day and found my old log book from Karate. A sensei from the US put on a semanar and I wrote this down. Someone asked him about street fighting and this was his responce.
1. Close distance.
Ahh.... why?
2. React in one second.
Works as long as you don't have a few drinks in you or slip.
3. Instant pain.
Does he know how to count? This should be like two steps later, after the technique.
4. Use technique that works on everyone.
Not really any such thing.
5. Morally justified.
The jury will figure that one out.
6. Legally safe.
What, exactly, about streetfighting, is legally safe and morally justified?
See, the first first part of what this guy said was about fighting- closing distance and inflicting pain.
But then, he says that it will be morally justified and legally safe- so now, he seems like he's talking about self-defense, which is directly in contrast with #1- closing distance. But if he was talking about streetfighting, then 5 and 6 no longer apply- he should have been teaching you about how to disappear and be in the wind for a while after you seriously hurt someone.
This Sensei's speciality was pressure point combat for lack of a better term. The places that this guy could inflict pain was amazing. I felt bad for the two guys that were his assistants.
I bet- but they were on awe struck students who were comlying with what he taught. Pressure points can work sometime, but only for very briefly- i.e., using a cross-face to get someone's head to come up so you can apply a chokehold from the back.
But in the real world, no one is going to stand there and let you do that.
I remember he was demonstrating a technique where you applied pressure on a persons forearm just above the wrist. For some reason, if I remember correctly, the bigger the person is the easier it is to make this work and the skinnier you were the harder it was. He said whenever he did a seminar he would always pick out the biggest dude to get the most ohhhs and ahhhs lol.
The size of the person doesn't matter. The thing that does matter is- did he tell you that some people don't have that pressure point? that you could crank all day on that shit and someone will give you a weird look and then lace in you in face?
Pressure points are good for striking at, but not so good for trying to really manhandle them by.
Sounds like a typical sensei who isn't really sure what he's talking about.
Ok, I'll risk the wrath of the 5x5 Fingers Of Death...
Irish, that's pretty much what I said in those non-showing posts.
One exception, though: Kicks to the knees, punches to the throat and eye-poking would work on everyone. Just not in any situation, that's the gist of it.
I was going through a closet the other day and found my old log book from Karate. A sensei from the US put on a semanar and I wrote this down. Someone asked him about street fighting and this was his responce.
1. Close distance.
Most self defense situations take place at close distance anyways. If you're free to choose your distance (for whatever reason), choose the distance you can best start your 400 meter sprint (i.e. escape) from.
2. React in one second.
Too long.
4. Use technique that works on everyone.
Um, yeah. No time for mumbo jumbo if it's serious.
5. Morally justified.
As an intelligent person you should always be aware that fighting - in a self defense situation - will lead to injury in one form or another. Cockfights are just below a martial artist, if you ask me. If somebody is threatening your life, morale is no longer an issue.
6. Legally safe.
I'd rather be sued for defending myself effectively than not being sued for being devastated. Also, no plaintiff means no judge. Defend yourself and run for it. Leave the scene. Better yet, run as a measure of defense. But I guess that possibility has been ruled out already.
This Sensei's speciality was pressure point combat for lack of a better term. The places that this guy could inflict pain was amazing. I felt bad for the two guys that were his assistants.
I remember he was demonstrating a technique where you applied pressure on a persons forearm just above the wrist. For some reason, if I remember correctly, the bigger the person is the easier it is to make this work and the skinnier you were the harder it was. He said whenever he did a seminar he would always pick out the biggest dude to get the most ohhhs and ahhhs lol.
As I said, pain won't cut in many situations, so pressure point fighting isn't what I'd train as a means of self defense. Of course, if you define the throat, eyes and carotis as pressure points, then go for it.
I was intrested to see what you people thought about his advice. I apologize if this has been covered before.
It's just not applicable in a dynamic/live situation. I've done pressure point training before in Karate, which i did before I started boxing. The whole time Sensei was running these demonstrations on us, the thought was going through my mind that I could whack him the face with my free hand, while yanking my arm away, as a normal person would do.
Besides, in a live situation, you can't predict a person's response/actions to that degree, why bother trying to find a pressure point under duress when you can drop a bomb on the point of his chin or jawline? -> If you're elevating the level of violence before he does, that has a much better track record.
Hell I like Geoff Thompson's approach to those situations (such as bar fights), make him feel secure by being submissive, then wack the fucker in the jaw and don't stop till he drops. Being active instead of reactive is always a better option, even if being "active" means hightailing it before the level of violence elevates from shoves to punches and glass bottles.
Personally I have trained a fair amount of pressure points (we call them "nerve attacks") and they do work, on a live fully resisting opponent (if you actually train them that way) no less. But the way that this sensei seems to be talking about using them doesn't sound like he has actually trained them that way.
I would never, ever just grab someone by the arm and try to squeeze down on a pressure point (and I've got a pretty strong "crushing grip" no less) and think that it's going to render them helpless and end the fight. I might target pressure points on their forearm(s) with strikes though, to momentarily "deaden" that arm, or open up their guard so I could hit them in the face.
It sounds like yet another one dimensional mindset regarding this "arsenal" of techniques.
There are a lot of "smoke and mirrors" pressure point guys out there who make some fantastic claims and thus give pressure point/nerve attacks a bad name. When in reality they can be very effective and useful tools. I hope that maybe the OP's Sensei wasn't one of them and he's just translating his experience poorly, but I fear that's not the case.
Join date: Nov 2002
Location: Ontario, CAN
Posts: 863
This seminar was twenty years ago and yes maybe I misremembered lol... Fried a few brain cells in that time.
FirestormWarrior point #5- He did mention realistically to expect to absorb a few blows. This ain't the movies.
Also not to try to kick a guy in the balls as your first shot. He said to give a dude credit and that he will instinctively protect them. Again, it ain't the movies.
This I positively remember. As he was lecturing us, his assistants would stand at the front facing us akimbo with their hands clasped behind their backs. Every once in awhile he would take his tonfa and hit one of them in the stomach when they wouldn't expect it...hard. We were trying not to crack up.
A couple of weeks after that we had Bill "Superfoot" Wallace come in for a weekend seminar. What a character lol...Was able to spend the day golfing with him. The rental clubs will never be the same again...bit of a temper. Unfucking believable speed. Sparring with him was one big blurr of hands and feet with pinpoint accuracy. Ate nothing but junk food...period. Greases the joints he said lol. The dude was a freak. No body fat and looked half his age. He was pissed because we didn't have a white castle in Canada. Great guy and funny as hell.
bond james bond wrote:
FirestormWarrior point #5- He did mention realistically to expect to absorb a few blows. This ain't the movies.
Point was was about being justified ina moralic sense, no? What exactly are you saying?
Also not to try to kick a guy in the balls as your first shot. He said to give a dude credit and that he will instinctively protect them. Again, it ain't the movies.
Having him protect his balls is not necessarily bad for you. Could be used as set-up for something else, like eye-gouging. Anyhow, this is so down to the situation that a theoric approach doesn't make sense. I feel comfortable at kicking range, so if I have any chance to do so, I'll kick.
EDIT: Out of curiosity, just wondering if that still was aimed towards my reply... I somehow fail to find anything about ball-kicking ;).
I think part of the problem is the term "pressure point" gives off a connotation of "my kung-fu is strong" mysticism. If you define pressure point as any area that has more of a reaction than normal when manipulated, then the chin is right on that list. So are the temples, eyes and throat.
It should be a mindset of whats the best ratio of easy to hit target vs. how much it will hurt. Basically, if someones back is turned, you wouldn't punch somebody in the asscheek, when their kidneys are right there. On the other hand if they're covering in a boxers high guard, you wouldnt go for the temple, you'd pop a body shot or stomp to the knees because its wide open.
Join date: May 2006
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Posts: 261
Pressure points, not for me... dont see it as practical unless you have trained YEARS...
This is odd coming from karate, which is usually one hit "kill" mentality of funakoshisan generally by reverse punch etc. The good karatekas ive seen in my day did not and would not use pr3essure points. Size really didnt matter, i knew a dude like 140 who was fast as fuck and would put most people on their ass.
after some personal experience and someone trying to kill me, it really isnt worth it unless someone wants to kill you. Thus, I will fucking stab someone...
Sentoguy wrote:
Personally I have trained a fair amount of pressure points (we call them "nerve attacks") and they do work, on a live fully resisting opponent (if you actually train them that way) no less. But the way that this sensei seems to be talking about using them doesn't sound like he has actually trained them that way.
I would never, ever just grab someone by the arm and try to squeeze down on a pressure point (and I've got a pretty strong "crushing grip" no less) and think that it's going to render them helpless and end the fight. I might target pressure points on their forearm(s) with strikes though, to momentarily "deaden" that arm, or open up their guard so I could hit them in the face.
It sounds like yet another one dimensional mindset regarding this "arsenal" of techniques.
There are a lot of "smoke and mirrors" pressure point guys out there who make some fantastic claims and thus give pressure point/nerve attacks a bad name. When in reality they can be very effective and useful tools. I hope that maybe the OP's Sensei wasn't one of them and he's just translating his experience poorly, but I fear that's not the case.
Pressure point (and joint locks) don't work very well if the attacker is drunk (and I suppose if you're sober its relatively easy to defend yourself. Trouble is I'm not always sober!)
Pressure point training is very much a ruse. If you notice the only time that pressure point attacks really work is when you have a willing assistant. What doesn't work when someone stands there and allows you to do something to them? One could easily demonstrate a right cross on someone who is standing there ready to be hit not offering any defense.
I can't think of the guys name but he's the "Dim Mak" pressure point death touch guy. He gave lessons to Dan Severn just before he fought Tank Abbott in the UFC. After the fight Severn said that he tried no less than 19 times to use these super secret pressure point moves and they flat out didn't work and in fact Tank didn't even react. He went on to win that fight anyway because he was a superior wrestler not because of pressure points.
I guess the walk away message is that anything will work if the person allows you to do it to them, but then that's not a fight is it?
Sentoguy wrote:
Personally I have trained a fair amount of pressure points (we call them "nerve attacks") and they do work, on a live fully resisting opponent (if you actually train them that way) no less. But the way that this sensei seems to be talking about using them doesn't sound like he has actually trained them that way.
I would never, ever just grab someone by the arm and try to squeeze down on a pressure point (and I've got a pretty strong "crushing grip" no less) and think that it's going to render them helpless and end the fight. I might target pressure points on their forearm(s) with strikes though, to momentarily "deaden" that arm, or open up their guard so I could hit them in the face.
It sounds like yet another one dimensional mindset regarding this "arsenal" of techniques.
There are a lot of "smoke and mirrors" pressure point guys out there who make some fantastic claims and thus give pressure point/nerve attacks a bad name. When in reality they can be very effective and useful tools. I hope that maybe the OP's Sensei wasn't one of them and he's just translating his experience poorly, but I fear that's not the case.
Pressure point (and joint locks) don't work very well if the attacker is drunk (and I suppose if you're sober its relatively easy to defend yourself. Trouble is I'm not always sober!)
Again, you seem to be thinking about this very one dimensionally. And honestly it sounds like you've never had someone who's any good at pressure points or joint locks do them to you, because they are NOT easy to defend (drunk or sober).
I don't care if you're drunk, sober, stoned, on PCP, whatever, if I break your thumb (using a joint lock), you aren't going to be grabbing me or able to use any weapons with that hand. If I break your leg (knee, ankle, Achilles tendon, whatever) you aren't going to be very effective in chasing me. If I break your neck or your back, fight's over.
Same is true of pressure points. If I crack you in the carotid sinus with a punch, kick, elbow, pool cue, whatever you are going nighty night. If I take my thumb and jam it into that same spot, your body is going to reflexively pull away from that pressure (which also results in your chin coming down towards your chest) which is going to allow me to easily push you backwards, creating space for me to hit you/sink in a bite/escape a bad position/whatever; or I can use this opportunity (your chin being down) to lock your neck; or just break your clinch/grip on me.
Train with someone who's skilled at pressure points/nerve attacks and joint locks and you'll change your mind very quickly.
ZEB wrote:
Pressure point training is very much a ruse. If you notice the only time that pressure point attacks really work is when you have a willing assistant. What doesn't work when someone stands there and allows you to do something to them? One could easily demonstrate a right cross on someone who is standing there ready to be hit not offering any defense.
I can't think of the guys name but he's the "Dim Mak" pressure point death touch guy. He gave lessons to Dan Severn just before he fought Tank Abbott in the UFC. After the fight Severn said that he tried no less than 19 times to use these super secret pressure point moves and they flat out didn't work and in fact Tank didn't even react. He went on to win that fight anyway because he was a superior wrestler not because of pressure points.
I guess the walk away message is that anything will work if the person allows you to do it to them, but then that's not a fight is it?
You're probably thinking of George Dillman, who yes is pretty much a fraud.
That doesn't mean that everyone who teaches "pressure points" (which I think a better term for is nerve attacks, since that's what you are actually attacking most of the time) is also a fraud. Nor does it mean that nerve attacks will only work against a compliant opponent.
In fact, lots of martial arts (even those commonly found in MMA) utilize nerves on a regular basis. Muay Thai's leg kicks are targeted towards the nerves of the legs. BJJ/Sambo/Catch wrestling utilizes attacking the nerves in techniques like a calf crusher, short arm scissor, grovit face lock, shin lock, guard passing, etc... Rocky Marciano used to love to target the nerves of the forearms in order to weaken his opponent's ability to cover up.
Even just pressuring against them with a thumb, elbow, knee, ect... can be effective. It's not going to end a real fight in most cases, but it'll definitely get a reaction. And knowing what reaction it's going to get allows one to quickly flow into other arsenals which will end the fight, or at least allow someone to quickly get out of a bad situation.
Here is Shihan Lysak demonstrating a nerve attack to the carotid artery/sinus as a way to escape mount position. Obviously, like just about every technique, there are certain situational elements that must be present for this exact application to work. But I can assure you that it's a very usable and effective technique used in other contexts as well. And I've used it many, many times against fully resisting opponents.
bond james blonde wrote:
I was going through a closet the other day and found my old log book from Sinanju. A sensei from the US put on a semanar and I wrote this down. Someone asked him about street fighting and this was his responce.
1. Fast car
2. Shout explosively to damage the eardrum
3. Instant customer satisfaction
4. Use only approved south east Korean techniques. Beware of shoddy south-western junk techniques!
5. It's always justified!
6. Play it safe, even if victim is on the pill.
This Sensei's speciality were drowning techniques. I wasn't sure he meant actual aquatic combat or that his wish was to drown in a heap of money one day. I felt bad for the hundreds of guys that he supposedly mauled with his dim-sum technique..
ZEB wrote:
Pressure point training is very much a ruse. If you notice the only time that pressure point attacks really work is when you have a willing assistant. What doesn't work when someone stands there and allows you to do something to them? One could easily demonstrate a right cross on someone who is standing there ready to be hit not offering any defense.
I can't think of the guys name but he's the "Dim Mak" pressure point death touch guy. He gave lessons to Dan Severn just before he fought Tank Abbott in the UFC. After the fight Severn said that he tried no less than 19 times to use these super secret pressure point moves and they flat out didn't work and in fact Tank didn't even react. He went on to win that fight anyway because he was a superior wrestler not because of pressure points.
I guess the walk away message is that anything will work if the person allows you to do it to them, but then that's not a fight is it?
You're probably thinking of George Dillman, who yes is pretty much a fraud.
Yes, Dillman that was it.
That doesn't mean that everyone who teaches "pressure points" (which I think a better term for is nerve attacks, since that's what you are actually attacking most of the time) is also a fraud. Nor does it mean that nerve attacks will only work against a compliant opponent.
I dunno, my friend, you can color me skeptical at best. I'd much rather step out into the street against someone trained in pressure point attacks than say um any one else who knows anything else.
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