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Sifu
Level 4
Join date: Oct 2002
Location:
Posts: 2920
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Miss Parker wrote:
666Rich wrote:
Anyone else love liver shots? be it a left hook, kick, knee etc. I always go for the liver. Especially for street fights its non lethal you dont have to worry about lawsuits.
Hee hee, I do! I was kicked in the liver and dropped like a stone. I thought it was my own personal apocalypse. Now I'm working on delivering my own liver strikes.
Borrek mentioned pressing the nerves on the inside of the leg to open a guard. I like doing this by ramming my elbows in & grinding away. Lovely.
As far as the more fine-tuned nerve strikes to the forearm etc., I've had these used successfully against me when I studied karate, but I could rarely pull them off. My chief instructor was extraordinarily good at this sort of stuff. Not me.
To get really good you have to practice techniques until they are second nature so you can just react with out having to think about it. This is what the Karate people call Mushin or the JKD people call noninterruption. When you have that ability working properly the moment you see an opening you will have a response without thinking about it.
The opposite of that is having your heart on using a particular technique, so now you are looking for a particualr opening so you can use it. When you get into that mindset you will miss out on opportunities to use other techniques because you are preoccupied looking for the opening you need to use what you want to use instead of just reacting to what your opponent is giving you.
So if you go into a fight looking to attack nerve centers you are not going to get what you want and you are going to get tore up. What is important to understand is this also applies to any other technique.
The only exception to this is when you outclass your opponent to the point that you can just toy with them. Then you can use them as a live practice dummy. Which is probably why your karate teacher was able to use nerve attacks so well on you. |
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Sifu
Level 4
Join date: Oct 2002
Location:
Posts: 2920
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ZEB wrote:
Sifu,
I know what you're all about we had this debate probably 3 or 4 years ago. You're into the traditional arts, you've dedicated your life to them. Let's not have this deabte again okay? You can use Dillman type pressure points and practice your katas and I'll stick to what I like. This way we'll both save lots of time.
All the best,
Zeb
I feel you Zeb. Just so you know I did try one of your suggestions. All the extra weight fucked my knee and foot up so I had to lose a lot of it. So now I am back down to 164 with a damaged knee.
Why would I waste my time on a self taught nobody like Dillman, when I have teachers who have a lineage that goes back hundreds of years and actually know what they are doing?
Practicing kata hasn't hurt Lyoto Machida or anyone else who has a reasonable expectation of what kata can do for them. If you know the right ones you have an extensive body of knowledge to draw upon.
Something important I have learned about kata is that when I first learned them there were some techniques that I did not like or think much of. But 25 years later some of those techniques I didn't like when I was young I really like now. If I didn't have kata practice to force me to keep doing things I didn't like I wouldn't be good at them now becase I would have thought oh this sucks and just given up.
One last point is one can't make generalizations about kata like you do. Because you don't know what or how I was taught or how I practice. |
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Schwarzfahrer
Level 0
Join date: Jun 2005
Location: Germany
Posts: 2028
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good post, Sifu
p.s. perhaps you can help me out. There is a budo word for "the right moment", that I forgot.
Basically, it's a principle that calls not for waiting for a specific moment, but rather attaining the right mindset to perceive and simultaneously act upon it.
It's not necessarily from Karate.
-S. |
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kmcnyc
Level 0
Join date: Nov 2006
Location: New York, USA
Posts: 3373
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Schwarzfahrer wrote:
good post, Sifu
p.s. perhaps you can help me out. There is a budo word for "the right moment", that I forgot.
Basically, it's a principle that calls not for waiting for a specific moment, but rather attaining the right mindset to perceive and simultaneously act upon it.
It's not necessarily from Karate.
-S.
I can agree- nice post sifu...
Swartz are you talking about
Ri-ai
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ZEB
Level 0
Join date: Sep 2003
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Sifu wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Sifu,
I know what you're all about we had this debate probably 3 or 4 years ago. You're into the traditional arts, you've dedicated your life to them. Let's not have this deabte again okay? You can use Dillman type pressure points and practice your katas and I'll stick to what I like. This way we'll both save lots of time.
All the best,
Zeb
I feel you Zeb. Just so you know I did try one of your suggestions. All the extra weight fucked my knee and foot up so I had to lose a lot of it. So now I am back down to 164 with a damaged knee.
Why would I waste my time on a self taught nobody like Dillman, when I have teachers who have a lineage that goes back hundreds of years and actually know what they are doing?
Practicing kata hasn't hurt Lyoto Machida or anyone else who has a reasonable expectation of what kata can do for them. If you know the right ones you have an extensive body of knowledge to draw upon.
Something important I have learned about kata is that when I first learned them there were some techniques that I did not like or think much of. But 25 years later some of those techniques I didn't like when I was young I really like now. If I didn't have kata practice to force me to keep doing things I didn't like I wouldn't be good at them now becase I would have thought oh this sucks and just given up.
One last point is one can't make generalizations about kata like you do. Because you don't know what or how I was taught or how I practice.
(Nodding head up and down) Yes, Sifu, yes, you are a great karate master. I am an evil weightlifting grappling guy who hurt your knee.
There, I feel better now and I hope you do too.
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Sentoguy
Level 2
Join date: Nov 2005
Location:
Posts: 4136
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Schwarzfahrer wrote:
On the streets it's quite hard to actually score clean bodyshots.
Even more, since it's mostly about the first 2-5 seconds.
@ livershots If you're at a physical disadvantage -quite common- and/or it's cold season (thick jackets), livershots become the dodos of punching technique. Ie , you might see them rather in the movies then in reality.
Not gonna happen.
If you're stronger and can realize quicky that the other guy has no business trading punches with you, going for the body is an option.
Still very difficult.
Actually I'd disagree about it being hard to land body shots "in the street". Most trained fighters have a hard time protecting their bodies, let alone untrained people. Not only that but most street fighters are "head hunters", thus making it even less likely that the person will be accustomed to defending body shots.
True that not trying to end the fight ASAP and instead trying to "box" someone in a real fight is a mistake though. It's also true that the weather/type of clothing worn by the opponent will make some targets less appropriate, but can you name any targets or techniques that are accessible 100% of the time in a street fight?
The guy could be wearing a motorcycle helmet, making striking to the head not all that effective. Doesn't mean that striking to the head isn't realistic in a street fight.
You just have to pick the most appropriate targets/techniques for the given situation. Getting stuck in a "this is better than that" mindset can result in "tactical tunnelvision" and put you at a disadvantage. |
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Sifu
Level 4
Join date: Oct 2002
Location:
Posts: 2920
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ZEB wrote:
Sifu wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Sifu,
I know what you're all about we had this debate probably 3 or 4 years ago. You're into the traditional arts, you've dedicated your life to them. Let's not have this deabte again okay? You can use Dillman type pressure points and practice your katas and I'll stick to what I like. This way we'll both save lots of time.
All the best,
Zeb
I feel you Zeb. Just so you know I did try one of your suggestions. All the extra weight fucked my knee and foot up so I had to lose a lot of it. So now I am back down to 164 with a damaged knee.
Why would I waste my time on a self taught nobody like Dillman, when I have teachers who have a lineage that goes back hundreds of years and actually know what they are doing?
Practicing kata hasn't hurt Lyoto Machida or anyone else who has a reasonable expectation of what kata can do for them. If you know the right ones you have an extensive body of knowledge to draw upon.
Something important I have learned about kata is that when I first learned them there were some techniques that I did not like or think much of. But 25 years later some of those techniques I didn't like when I was young I really like now. If I didn't have kata practice to force me to keep doing things I didn't like I wouldn't be good at them now becase I would have thought oh this sucks and just given up.
One last point is one can't make generalizations about kata like you do. Because you don't know what or how I was taught or how I practice.
(Nodding head up and down) Yes, Sifu, yes, you are a great karate master. I am an evil weightlifting grappling guy who hurt your knee.
There, I feel better now and I hope you do too.
You know what, I do feel much better now.I never considered myself a master. Let alone a great one. My weak, insecure ego really needed that stroking. Thank you Zeb you're the man. I'm going to print and frame this post so I can put it on my wall!
Just for the record I have nothing against grappling. Though I did lose some of my interest after I saw a fighter kicked off of TUF because he had an active Herpes legion on his face. |
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FightinIrish26
Level 0
Join date: Feb 2005
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 11048
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Sentoguy wrote:
Actually I'd disagree about it being hard to land body shots "in the street". Most trained fighters have a hard time protecting their bodies, let alone untrained people. Not only that but most street fighters are "head hunters", thus making it even less likely that the person will be accustomed to defending body shots.
True, but rarely are body shots blatantly open. I would aim for the solar plexus (have done and it does work) but anything lower than that (floating ribs, liver) is going to be more difficult, especially wearing a jacket or heavy clothing. Or an iron plate like in back to the future.
True that not trying to end the fight ASAP and instead trying to "box" someone in a real fight is a mistake though. It's also true that the weather/type of clothing worn by the opponent will make some targets less appropriate, but can you name any targets or techniques that are accessible 100% of the time in a street fight?
I disagree that boxing is a bad idea- depends on the area. In a parking lot, you can be damned sure that I'm going to use boxing for all its worth to stick and move... all it takes is a couple good shots and a fight could be ended, and the less damage you're sustaining, the better off you'll be.
Face shots are usually open against untrained fighters- rarely does a guy naturally know how to parry a punch or slip it.
The guy could be wearing a motorcycle helmet, making striking to the head not all that effective. Doesn't mean that striking to the head isn't realistic in a street fight.
True.
You just have to pick the most appropriate targets/techniques for the given situation. Getting stuck in a "this is better than that" mindset can result in "tactical tunnelvision" and put you at a disadvantage.
Absolutely right.
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Sentoguy
Level 2
Join date: Nov 2005
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FightinIrish26 wrote:
I disagree that boxing is a bad idea- depends on the area. In a parking lot, you can be damned sure that I'm going to use boxing for all its worth to stick and move... all it takes is a couple good shots and a fight could be ended, and the less damage you're sustaining, the better off you'll be.
What I meant was that the longer a fight goes on, the greater the chance that a weapon or multiples will become involved. So, the goal should be to end the fight ASAP. "Boxing" someone (sticking and moving as you put it) can be effective, but it also prolongs the duration of the fight.
I'm not saying that it is never appropriate, just that I'd try to end the fight ASAP if at all possible. |
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espenl
Level 0
Join date: Oct 2006
Location: Norway
Posts: 86
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In filipino martial arts we have something called "gunting", which comes from cutting with knives. These moves are additional strikes when blocking and hitting, usually going for muscles. If we hit a nerve point its a bonus, but its not needed. If we have something in our hands we can use the same principles, so most handheld objects become weapons. |
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hvy8lifts
Level 4
Join date: Mar 2006
Location: New York, USA
Posts: 2
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As a former NYPD Officer I used pressure points extensively to control the mutts I dealt with. No civilian complaints and no bruises ! Nothing learned in Police Academy but prior Martial Arts training was key. Sgt always wanted me on scene as I could calm and control a much larger guy without using a baton or pepper spray. Kept his friends and activists from thinking the worst. |
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kaisermetal22
Level 0
Join date: Nov 2008
Location: Brazil
Posts: 61
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hvy8lifts wrote:
As a former NYPD Officer I used pressure points extensively to control the mutts I dealt with. No civilian complaints and no bruises ! Nothing learned in Police Academy but prior Martial Arts training was key. Sgt always wanted me on scene as I could calm and control a much larger guy without using a baton or pepper spray. Kept his friends and activists from thinking the worst.
No bro, you did it all wrong, you had to go to the BALLZ! =) |
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Deorum
Level 0
Join date: Oct 2009
Location:
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Wait people use pressure points outside of wrestling with a girlfriend?
No seriously though I could not imagine attempting a pressure point on another man at all, let alone in an actual fight. |
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Sifu
Level 4
Join date: Oct 2002
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espenl wrote:
In filipino martial arts we have something called "gunting", which comes from cutting with knives. These moves are additional strikes when blocking and hitting, usually going for muscles. If we hit a nerve point its a bonus, but its not needed. If we have something in our hands we can use the same principles, so most handheld objects become weapons.
That is something that has gone over the top of most peoples heads on this board. But that is how I was taught too. First we would learn how to use these various targets with our bare hands and feet. Then when we moved on to weapons we would use the same targets areas and even the same angles of attack. |
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