About to commence a cycle of liver-toxic orals.
Yep orals only for six weeks.

So: How does one determine which oral steroids are the most toxic? what makes one oral steroid more toxic than another?

From what I've learned only oral primo is not 17-alkylated, but anadrol, dianabol, winstrol, tbol, anavar, halo, etc are all 17-alkylated.

Among these, is it just the mg dosage commonly used to get the desired effect that makes some more toxic than others? Or are there oter factors involved?

Anadrol is typically dosed much higher than dbol for instance. Is that the only reason drol is regarded as more toxic?

Bloodwork dude. That's the ONLY way to assess your individual susceptibility to liver stress.

Damn good question i wish i could answer that.

Any who i'll be checking back and hopefully some one can elaborate!!

I do agree with altered though for such a hefty cycle of orals blood work should be a must.

The Judge

AlteredState wrote:
Bloodwork dude. That's the ONLY way to assess your individual susceptibility to liver stress.

Yes, but I was not asking about my individual results, but rather in more general terms. What separates one alkylated oral steroid from another with regards to how toxic they are?

a complete liver enzyme panel. correction: pulling a complete liver enzyme panel while on a cycle of each different kind of oral.

no one knows?

balisong wrote:
no one knows?

don't quote me on this, I'm far from a chemist...

I think it has to do with where the methyl group attaches in the chemical structure.

Sorry man, that's all I got and it could be wrong.

You could maybe start by looking up the chemical structures of the compounds and researching how the structure of a compound acts differently.

for example, the difference between "cis" and "trans" fats. Same components in each structure, but structured differently and they have completely different responses with the body.

hope that helps

DG

balisong wrote:
no one knows?

Well now that you mention it, no my grasp of chemistry isn't sufficient to know the reason for the variation between different steroids.

However, I propose the following:

Alkyl groups (including ethyl and methyl) which are added to oral steroids to make them more resistant to metabolism by the liver are potent radicals, once removed from the parent steroid molecule. Radicals cause high levels of oxidative damage and stress, negatively affecting the cell membrane of hepatocytes (the functional liver cell).

So this form of damage is probably common to all oral steroids to a degree, although I believe that alkyl is more damaging than ethyl or methyl groups.

Now, for the second part of my cunning hypothesis ;)

Certain steroids, notably dianabol and anadrol are reputed to cause more damage than others. Why might this be? Well dbol and drol are also notable from other steroids in that they cause a large amount of volume increase in muscle cells through glycogen uptake. This process also occurs in liver cells, making the liver swell slightly through increased glycogen retention.

A cell is a closed structure that communicates with things outside it. When it swells due to increased osmotic pressure, it undergoes osmotic stress. Basically, think of a balloon - the more air you put in, the taughter the structure of the balloon.

Now, imagine puncturing the balloon with millions of sub-microscopic holes (the radical damage induced by the alkyl group). The air escapes faster, due to the increased pressure.

So I imagine it to be with the liver cell. It is under osmotic pressure from the increased glycogen and water and its membrane is damaged due to being attacked by free radicals.

This combination of factors causes the leakage of certain enzymes, which are then assesed during an LFT (liver function test).

So, this might (I say might be a model for the increased liver damage associated with the two steroids dbol and drol.

As for the others, I don't know; haven't thought it through and nothing springs to mind.

Anyway my above theory could be utter bollocks. Hopefully someone else will chip in with some pukka science ;)

Good as theory as i've heard anyway! :)

But halo is supposed to be very toxic too? And causes very little bloat?

balisong wrote:
Good as theory as i've heard anyway! :)

But halo is supposed to be very toxic too? And causes very little bloat?

That is a very good point.