Before anyone asks I did a fairly extensive search and cannot find anything that addresses my specific questions, which are:

1) Pull-Ups: I'm trying to build up the strength to do unassisted pull-ups. I use a standard apparatus at the gym with an Iron Woody band. I have 3 bands which offer various levels of assistance. I've only used the fat gray band (the most assistance) and can squeeze out 5 wide grip pull ups and 6 narrow grip.

If I want to progress should I keep going with the gray band until I can knock out 7, 8, or 9 (or 12) pull ups before going up to the next harder band? Or should I go up to the next harder band now, which will mean going back to square one and being able to only knock out 1-3 real pull-ups, until I've developed the strength to do more? I was really proud of myself last night, forcing out that 6th complete pull up for the first time. But it really has me wondering now.

Before you ask, I've avoided using the assisted pull-up machine because I never really felt It was helping me to build anything. And everything I've read (here and elsewhere) convinces me I was right to avoid it.

2) Dips: The unassisted type. Can't do 'em but I won't stop trying :). I use the plain old dip station and can maybe lower myself a few inches, for 3-4 reps (If I want to be able to get back up!) or I can get down really low and pull myself all the way back up once. For me, it's ridiculously hard, probably because I'm still a heavy girl (I weigh a lot more than I look like) - and It's not like they make Iron Woody bands for dip-doing.

Some young punk girl at my gym suggested I use the Assisted Dip machine because I could "get down a lot lower." No, I wasn't asking for anyone's advice. Still, she got me wondering later on if maybe I SHOULD try some combination of unassisted and assisted dips, in hopes I can eventually work up the strength to do repeated unassisted dips.

Good idea? Bad idea? Or is there a better way to build up the strength to do repeated unassisted dips? I've never read anything discrediting machine assistance for dips but I don't really trust that it's the best method...

Thanks in advance.

I am by no means an authority, however, I used to not be able to do many pullups/dips myself.

I found that the best way to get better at doing pull ups/dips was to use my legs at the bottom of the movement. I would give a little push with my calfs to get me up, then I would try and hold the top position (when doing pull ups). After a second or 3 passed I would lower myself very slowly. I used the same ideology when doing dips.

Eventually by doing this I was strong enough to take my legs out of the equation. I then progressed the reps, and then progressed the added weight.

My 2 cents,
James Keeton

I too have trouble with dips and pull-ups. I can do one two unassisted of each, but that's it. My gym has the assist machine where you can select how mnay pounds it takes off your body weight when you kneel on the pad.
What I've done is what you are thinking about. Say I can do 12 with 90 poiunds taken off, and 6 with 50 pounds taken off.

Each workout that called for pull ups, I would alternate. Go back and forth. If you can only bang out 3 reps with the colored bands, do several sets. Play with it and see how you progress after a few workouts.

Don't forget your assistance exercises too.

I can't get the link right now, at work, but Nate Green did an article on pullups recently that had a lot of assistance exercises and tips for upping reps or starting off. Pretty good if I remember correctly.

With bands, I would warm up with a couple banded, then try as many reps as possible without a band, then return to the band after failure. Just to get some volume in it. Holding the top and lowering slowly is popular, not sure how much it really helps.

For dips, I'd go with eccentric lowering reps, and then reset. You could do close-grip decline bench press, and tricep pushdowns for assistance, basically get your pushing muscles stronger.

Not trying to be rude, just honest, but losing weight does help a lot with bodyweight exercises.

This is going to seem a bit counterintuitive, but the answer to your question is "yes." I'm not trying to be funny. Start your workout doing assisted, full range of motion sets with the band/machine that gets the job done. Stay around 8 reps for these opening sets. Then decrease the assistance, but do not sacrifice form for additional reps. If you do not want to use weight assisted machines for dips/pullups try using a chair or a buddy to hold your feet as they are crossed behind you. This way you can assist yourself only as much as you need to. Toggle back and forth between assisted for 6-8 reps and unassisted or very low assistance for whatever you can. As suggested above, working peripheral muscles like triceps and biceps will also help move things along.

There are two things going on here, the first is teaching your muscles to perform a new movement, the other is sufficiently loading your muscles to make them stronger. Most importantly, be patient with yourself as this stuff takes time. You've already made magnificent gains (or losses) and you have the rest of your life to perfect your program. Keep it up.

I am also not an expert, but this is what worked for me:

1) pull-ups - I would go to the gym with a certain number of reps I wanted to get and just did however many sets it took for me to reach it.

For example, when I first started I wanted to get 10 pull-ups and the break down would look something like 2-2-2-1-1-1-1. Not terribly impressive but I struggled through it. I kept the rest time relatively brief (between 60-90 seconds) and just kept hammering them out. Eventually I could get a few sets of 3 then upped my total reps and repeated.

So I guess what I am saying is I would recommend using the least amount of resistance that will get you up, but again, I am not certified so take that for what it is.

2) dips - I could not do these for the life of me. If you can get someone to hold your feet and help you up that works. I usually workout by myself so that was not an option. In my case, I did not have the shoulder strength to do dips properly and usually would end up hurting myself (plus my arms would flair out like a bastard).

What helped me was push-ups. When I first started lifting I really thought doing presses and flyes were enough, but my push ups remained pitiful. Again I had to suck it up and get on the floor. After a few months I gave dips another shot and could actually do 6. Obviously I was doing other stuff besides push ups, but you get the point.

You all are being incredibly helpful. Thank you so much. I train when the gym is almost always empty so I have no frame of reference when it comes to what I'm able to do vs. everyone else.

SP, I really love the way you describe hammering away on the pull-ups for 1 and 2 rep sets until you got it.

PL, thanks for your advice about building strength to do the moves.

There's lots of really helpful stuff here to put to work :).

You are working to increase your 1rm; therefore it would seem that you should work with heavy weight, low reps for a high number of sets. Ditch the grey band.

When I train weighted chins, for the purpose of increasing my 1rm, I use clusters of singles as well as forced negatives.

This.

Use the less resistance band to get out one hard rep or as many as you can manage, then do the rest with the greater resistance band.
This makes the central nervous system fire up making the reps with the higher resistance feel easier hope that makes sense.
I use this technique I use a weight belt to do 3 heavy ones then drop it and bang out a load at bodyweight.

try negative pullups someone helps you up and you go as slow as you can on the way after a couple of weeks you will be doing reps on your own throw away the bands

Great stuff, guys!

Thanks so much.

SirenSong61, I think you've already gotten a lot of good advice here, but I'll add my 2 cents as well.

First, I would try to adapt the band(s) you're using on the pullups to dips as well. You should be able to wrap the band around the bars of the dip station and then have one or both knees against the other part of it. That will give you some assistance out of the bottom - the most difficult part of the dip.

Also, generally speaking, I would stay away completely from dipping machines, whether they are the kind where you kneel on a counter-weighted pad, or the kind where you sit on a seat and push down with your arms. Exercises are surprisingly specific. The reason you might have trouble doing dips might have more to do with stability (core and shoulder) rather than the more obvious strength deficit in your triceps and pecs. Case in point: how many guys can handle several hundred pounds on a leg press, but if you put a loaded bar on their back and ask them to squat, they can't. (Or they'll do a quarter squat!). The only way you build stability is by practicing the actual movement, not an approximation of that movement.

Second point... Even while you are still using bands to assist you, take the total number of pullups you can do (6 in your case) and divide it in half. Start doing sets of 3. Do a 2-3 sets of 3, then go away and move on to another exercise completely. Then go back and do another 2-3 sets of 3 pullups, with conventional rests between sets. Later on in your workout, repeat this again, so that you have done a total of 25-30 reps by the time you leave the gym, but with multiple low rep sets. Then, one time a week, add some load. Yep, go ahead and hold a small dumbbell between your feet (10lbs or less), even if you can only squeeze out 1-2 reps that way before failure. Do a few sets of those with fairly lengthy rest periods. Maybe a total of 10-12 reps only. This combination will quickly build your strength and strength/endurance. Before long, you'll be cranking out sets of 8 or more with just your bodyweight. You won't even need the band anymore.

For dips... Start at the bottom position. Then do what another poster suggested and use your feet to give yourself a little push and give you some momentum to complete the rep. Pause at top, and try to lower yourself back down slowly. Do this for several reps. In a couple of weeks, you should be able to do 1-3 reps with no help from your legs. At that point, try doing what I did to quickly build up my dip strength. I stole this idea from Chad Waterbury: Do just 1 or 2 dips. Go for a full ROM but do them FAST. Let go and just stand right there in front of the dip bars and count to 12 or 15 in your mind. Grab the bars again and do 1-2 more reps, as fast as you can but full-range. Stop and rest for just 12 to 15 seconds again. Repeat. Keep doing this until you notice your dip speed is slowing way down or you notice that your ROM is shortening. Either way, when that happens, stop doing dips for that day and move on to another exercise. This worked for me, I started out being able to do just 1-2 properly and just over a month later I could do sets of 8 or 9.

I found that actually doing unassisted Pull Ups and Dips helped

A great finisher after working with assisted pullups are negatives. Start with a full contraction (chin above the bar) and lower yourself down as slowly as possible. Repeat until you can't do any more.

For dips, try putting a chair or stool under you when you're doing the dips. Try not to use your legs as much as possible, but having the support of your legs should allow you to get a full range of motion, and you can judge how much assistance you need with your legs, rather than having a band.

Great replies. In addition to the banded pull ups or dip, I would recommend an inverted row using either a TRX or bar hanging off the squat rack.

Pull-ups are one of my favorite exercises in the last 5 months I increased my count from 6 to 23. Some tips for pull-ups and ideas you might use:

First I found a problem I had was grip. Just hanging a lot either time hangs, pull-ups, or hanging leg raises, and deadlifting helped that problem.

Look straight up using a pull-up position to activate more of your back. I have puny arms so this helped me a lot.

Swinging as someone suggested or doing kipping pull-ups can help in the beginning.

Another good exercise is to use a smith machine and set the bar down towards the bottom. Go under it and do inverse push-ups. The closer to horizontal you get the harder so work towards as low as you can rationally go and then increase difficulty further by putting feet on a step, bench, or ball. Don't really know what the correct name for this exercise is.

http://figureathlete.tmuscle.c...

The method that worked best for me was negatives as described above. I went from 6 to a full 20 on my PFT in 6 months. I also got a removable pull up bar for a door across from my bathroom. Once you can do them unassisted, get a max set every time you go through the bathroom door (each way). You'll be out-pulling most guys in no time.