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Paul Chek, the Director's Cut

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MikeTheBear
Level 3

Join date: Mar 2003
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 3299

katzenjammer wrote:

MikeTheBear wrote:
Rather, it's the sense that I alone control my life to the extent that I can control it. There is no grand plan.

Either you believe in God or you hold some other governing belief. Here ^^ is yours. You can't really escape this; indeed, you just proved you can't.

Of course there is some governing belief - I don't disagree with that at all. As Neil Peart said, "If you chose not to decide you still have made a choice." What I disagree with was the statement (I believe it was made by Zeb) that those who don't believe in God or who perhaps question the existence of a God automatically worship money, sex, themselves, drugs, or whatever. In my case, nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, if you didn't know that I had questioned the existence of God, you'd think I was a practicing Christian: I'm going on 20 years of marriage to the same woman, I've never cheated, I love my child and try to spend as much time as I can with her, I do volunteer work, and I've never done drugs and don't plan to. And on some issues I agree with the conservatives: a free market economy is good, high taxes are bad, and socialized medicine is a bad idea. To be fair, I was raised Catholic, so that probably had some influence.

However, I now do these things because I believe they have intrinsic value, not because I fear punishment from an invisible being. In fact, this is how I try to maintain control over my life. Having an affair and doing drugs make life more complicated. If I want to maintain control over my life, I want to keep things as simple as possible. If I don't, and things go bad, I can't rely on some invisible deity to help me out.

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MikeTheBear
Level 3

Join date: Mar 2003
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 3299

katzenjammer wrote:
I don't like the analogy - it's an analogy of an analogy, adding complexity on top of complexity. Analogies are only useful when they clarify, not obfuscate.

In my opinion, we need to get out of this false choice of Theist, Atheist or Agnostic.

Agnosticism is an especially incoherent concept: it's really just a so-called "Atheist" - saying that "I don't know whether God exists" is exactly equivalent to saying that you "don't believe in him." An Agnostic is an Atheist who simply fails to understand that not making a choice is also making a choice. If you cannot bring yourself to believe in God - you're not an Agnostic, you're an "Atheist" who is trying to fool himself by calling himself an Agnostic.

This is interesting because atheists have the same criticism of agnostics. An atheist is actually someone who cannot bring himself to believe in God. An atheist does not say "I am 100% certain that God does not exist." Rather, an atheist does not find the evidence for the existence of God compelling. An atheist can be persuaded that God exists, but it would take something truly extraordinary - something that could not be explained away as a hallucination, delusion, or really good magic trick.

Moreover, Atheism itself is not really a tenable category. Just ask yourself: what is the most important belief you hold about yourself and the world? What do you value most? What or whom do you look to when you need answers? Et cetera.

It is in these ^^ questions that you will find your god.

This seems a bit like a God of the gaps argument. It's not that I don't want to believe in God, it's that I've yet to be convinced of God's existence.

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ZEB
Level 0

Join date: Sep 2003
Location:
Posts: 11164

MikeTheBear wrote:

What I disagree with was the statement (I believe it was made by Zeb) that those who don't believe in God or who perhaps question the existence of a God automatically worship money, sex, themselves, drugs, or whatever.

I should have been more clear on that point. What I was saying was that we (as human beings) have a certain capacity to worship. And if you remember I used the word "worship" as meaning "extra devotion to something". I never said that if you do not worship God that you automatically worship money, cars, boats etc. But there is a tendency to direct that "devotion" to other areas of your life, many of which are not very healthy.

In my case, nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, if you didn't know that I had questioned the existence of God, you'd think I was a practicing Christian: I'm going on 20 years of marriage to the same woman, I've never cheated, I love my child and try to spend as much time as I can with her, I do volunteer work, and I've never done drugs and don't plan to. And on some issues I agree with the conservatives: a free market economy is good, high taxes are bad, and socialized medicine is a bad idea. To be fair, I was raised Catholic, so that probably had some influence.

Don't underestimate the early influence of Christian living on your current way of thinking. While one may not believe in God if you practice living a good life you can reap the rewards of that life. Of course that is merely the here and now.

However, I now do these things because I believe they have intrinsic value, not because I fear punishment from an invisible being.

You are a bit confused my friend, Christians don't do good things because they're afraid of God.

As it says in the book of James:

2:18 "But someone will say you have faith I have deeds, show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do."

As a Christian I want to help when I can and do the right thing, it has nothing to do with fear, to allege such a thing is simply inaccurate.

In fact, this is how I try to maintain control over my life. Having an affair and doing drugs make life more complicated. If I want to maintain control over my life, I want to keep things as simple as possible. If I don't, and things go bad, I can't rely on some invisible deity to help me out.

This just shows that you're a smart guy. When Christians sin by having extra marital affairs etc. they know that they too will have to suffer the consequences. God won't swoop down and rescue any of us when we behave like that. However, we do know that there is forgiveness. If you think that Christians feel that they'll be bailed out by God if they cheat on their wives you are once again quite mistaken.

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pat
Level 4

Join date: Oct 2002
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 6758

pittbulll wrote:

pat wrote:

pittbulll wrote:

pat wrote:

pittbulll wrote:
I agree with the Cat in the Box analogy, there is no way to win this argument on either side, I will even go one farther and say no one can open the box until after death, So we that preside on earth will never know until death or the Rapture

See my "hearing rustling in the box" addendum to the cat in the box. Still can't know until you open the box, but you can make determinations based on the evidence you can get to. This is important because everyone makes a decision the status of that cat, what you base that decision on is paramount.

Once you open that box, it's to late to be wrong, so you should try not to be. That cat may claw your eyes out, you'd want to be prepared.

You may believe you hear rustling, but you can not prove to a disbeliever that you are not imagining the rustling

What if you both agree you heard it, but just disagree on the source... I really like this cat in the box analogy.

What if you don't

Then we're back to your preceding statement. But what if you do?

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